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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 04:09pm
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Right Enforcement?

Need help to see if we made the right enforcement in our game. We had A1 sweeping around right end behind pulling guard and tackle. B1 comes up and throws a low block on the the guard and tackle in an attempt to wipe out their blocking for A1. We have a flag down here at B45 yd line for the low block. Somehow A1 finds an opening and scampers down the sideline to the 5 yd line where he taunts the B players and then crosses the goal line. We have a flag down at the 5 yd line for unsportsmanlike taunting foul. How should this situation be handled?
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kytank View Post
Need help to see if we made the right enforcement in our game. We had A1 sweeping around right end behind pulling guard and tackle. B1 comes up and throws a low block on the the guard and tackle in an attempt to wipe out their blocking for A1. We have a flag down here at B45 yd line for the low block. Somehow A1 finds an opening and scampers down the sideline to the 5 yd line where he taunts the B players and then crosses the goal line. We have a flag down at the 5 yd line for unsportsmanlike taunting foul. How should this situation be handled?
You have a live ball and dead ball (like) foul being enforced.

Enforce the live ball foul first and put the USC foul in your pocket.

You have a score and you enforce a BBW foul and put the ball on the 1 1/2 yard line from the 3 yard line (half the distance to the goal). Then you enforce the USC Foul 15 yards putting the ball on the 16 1/2 yard line where the try will take place.

You do not give the option to the defense because they are not the scoring team from what I understand.

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 05:00pm
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The score counts. (Rule 10-5-3.)

A has the option of enforcing B's foul on the try (moving the ball to the 1 1/2 yard line) or on the kickoff (moving the kick to the 50 yard line). (Rule 8-2-2.) I'd imagine they'd take the foul on the kickoff.

B can only enforce the unsportsmanlike conduct foul on the try. (Rule 10-4-5a.) Penalize 15 yards from the succeeding spot, which is B's 3-yard-line for the try.

If the unsportsmanlike conduct occurs after the player crosses the goal and the ball is dead, B can choose to enforce the penalty on the kickoff. (Rule 8-2-4.)
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 05:33pm
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Indeed the score does count.

And A does have the option of enforcing B's foul on the try or the kickoff.

However B's options for enforcement on the unsportsmanship conduct by A will apply to both the try and succeeding kickoff as well

The options given to B on the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty by A is not determined whether the player crossed the goal line, its determined by when it occurred, whether it was before or after the ready-for-play whistle for the try. In this case its before.
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 07:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtwbam View Post
The options given to B on the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty by A is not determined whether the player crossed the goal line, its determined by when it occurred, whether it was before or after the ready-for-play whistle for the try. In this case its before.
Rule 8-2-4: "If after a touchdown-scoring play and prior to the initial ready-for-play signal for the try, either team commits any foul for which the basic spot is the succeeding spot, the offended team may have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the penalty enforced on the subsequent kickoff."

If the foul occurs before he crosses the goal line, then it is not after the play, it is during the play. Thus, B's only option is to enforce on the try.
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 07:47pm
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Since all unsportmanlike penalties are treated as dead ball fouls, this would be the exception to the rule, and give B the option to have the penalty assessed either on the try or subsequent kickoff.
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 07:53pm
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The NFHS "Bin Book" (High School Football Penalty Enforcements Made Easy) treats a live ball foul (treated as a dead ball) as a foul that can be applied on the kickoff, as well.

Redding says: "Penalties for nonplayer and unsportsmanlike fouls, by either team during a play that ends in a touchdown (8-2-4)" can be applied on the kickoff.

Last edited by Rich; Mon Sep 07, 2009 at 07:58pm.
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 10:04pm
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Are you all agreed that the order of presentation of the options is correct? A's choice of the live ball foul penalty, followed by B's choice of the live ball foul treated as dead ball foul penalty?

Also, might the BBW call have been incorrect (insufficient detail in the example)? Suppose the OL were pulling "flat" enough that the contact could be said to be in the neutral zone, and was in the FBZ and the ball was still in the FBZ, and B1 was a DL. ("B1 comes up" suggests it wasn't a player from the line, but that's not a definite inference.) I remember in Fed there's a difference in some case between clipping, BBW, and use of hands in the back regarding treatment of contact by A and by B, where A was allowed something B wasn't, but I don't remember which it was.

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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 10:23pm
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Both A and B players can legally BBW if all players involved are in the FBZ and on their LOS at the snap, as long as contact is in the FBZ before the zone goes away. Clipping is legally permitted only by A linemen on the LOS and in the zone on B players on the LOS and in the zone, if contact is in the FBZ before it vanishes. Blocking in the back is legally permitted only for A players on the LOS and in the zone on any B player in the zone at the time of the snap, if contact is in the FBZ before it vanishes.

The key difference between clipping and BIB is that only defensive players in the FBZ and on their LOS can be clipped, but any defensive player in the FBZ - whether on the LOS or not - can be legally BIBed. They key difference between those two and BBW is that a B player can legally BBW, but he can't legally clip or BIB.
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Old Mon Sep 07, 2009, 11:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtwbam View Post
However B's options for enforcement on the unsportsmanship conduct by A will apply to both the try and succeeding kickoff as well

The options given to B on the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty by A is not determined whether the player crossed the goal line, its determined by when it occurred, whether it was before or after the ready-for-play whistle for the try. In this case its before.
That's wrong. The USC before the score is the succeeding spot only. Bullycon has it right. A can bridge the BBW to the KO or have it on the try, B can only take A's USC on the try only.
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Old Tue Sep 08, 2009, 07:00am
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Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
That's wrong. The USC before the score is the succeeding spot only. Bullycon has it right. A can bridge the BBW to the KO or have it on the try, B can only take A's USC on the try only.
Nobody disagrees about the penalty for BBW.

True, the USC by A happened during the down. But since it is treated as a dead-ball foul, 8-2-4 applies to it (Bullycon quoted the rule above). Thus, B has the option to enforce the penalty on the KO. Hence, the Reddings ruling also quoted.
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Old Tue Sep 08, 2009, 07:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kytank View Post
Need help to see if we made the right enforcement in our game. We had A1 sweeping around right end behind pulling guard and tackle. B1 comes up and throws a low block on the the guard and tackle in an attempt to wipe out their blocking for A1. We have a flag down here at B45 yd line for the low block. Somehow A1 finds an opening and scampers down the sideline to the 5 yd line where he taunts the B players and then crosses the goal line. We have a flag down at the 5 yd line for unsportsmanlike taunting foul. How should this situation be handled?
CANADIAN RULING:

If the block below the waist is illegal, it is enforced from the PLS (10y, DR or 1D) if the ball is behind the LTG, and PBH (10y, 1D) is beyond the LTG.

After that, go back 10y with the same down.
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Old Tue Sep 08, 2009, 07:51am
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Originally Posted by mbyron View Post
Nobody disagrees about the penalty for BBW.

True, the USC by A happened during the down. But since it is treated as a dead-ball foul, 8-2-4 applies to it (Bullycon quoted the rule above). Thus, B has the option to enforce the penalty on the KO. Hence, the Reddings ruling also quoted.
The rule says: If AFTER a TD scoring play, the foul is committed. This foul occurred before the TD. Sorry, but Redding and the bin book are wrong in this one. There are no rules that allow the USC to bridge to the KO.
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Old Tue Sep 08, 2009, 08:03am
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Originally Posted by gtwbam View Post
Since all unsportmanlike penalties are treated as dead ball fouls, this would be the exception to the rule, and give B the option to have the penalty assessed either on the try or subsequent kickoff.
They are not treated as dead ball fouls and you won't that language anywhere in the rules. They are enforced from the succeeding spot. The difference is subtle, and relevant only in a play like this.
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Old Tue Sep 08, 2009, 08:15am
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Originally Posted by ref1986 View Post
They are not treated as dead ball fouls and you won't that language anywhere in the rules. They are enforced from the succeeding spot. The difference is subtle, and relevant only in a play like this.
And that's exactly why A's USC foul can't bypass the try.
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