Is this a PSK Enforcement?

[jrfath]

Play from last night...

4th and 13...K is punting.
R brings out their return team...I count...think I have 12 R's, but am not positive. I should have flagged it, counted to make sure, and then it would have been Illegal Substitution (5 yards). But I am unable to confirm 12 players before the punt.
K punts the ball...during the punt, I am able to recount, and R does indeed have 12 (DRATS!). So I drop my flag.
R ends the play with the ball.
After the play, I tell the referee we have 12 R players...therefore illegal participation.

IS THIS A PSK ENFORCEMENT (go to the end of the kick, penalize the 15 yards on R, and it is their ball 1st and 10)?

Or it is enforced from the previous spot like a loose ball play. Penalize R 15 yards, which in turn gives K a first down?

[SoGARef]

We had this same play discussed at great length before, but for some reason it turned sour and was closed. The question was presented to Jerry Diehl at NFHS and he said that this foul was one that is simultaneous with the snap and therefore would not fall under the PSK. There seems to be some confusion with the definition of PSK and the snap. I believe we will see the HF make an exception or a clarification that fouls simultaneously with the snap are exempt from PSK enforcement.

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by jrfath

IS THIS A PSK ENFORCEMENT (go to the end of the kick, penalize the 15 yards on R, and it is their ball 1st and 10)?

Or it is enforced from the previous spot like a loose ball play. Penalize R 15 yards, which in turn gives K a first down?

I'm not a NF official but for NCAA any PSK foul it is important to place a flag at the point of the foul, because if the foul is behind the end of the kick enforcement is from the flag. If the kick ended behind the foul then enforce from the end of the kick. Now for IP where would you place your flag, because you got 12 choices. Under NCAA the enforcement is from the previous spot

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I agree that a NF clarification might be in order even though fouls occuring simultaneously with the snap don't have a spot.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Bob M.
REPLY: I agree that a NF clarification might be in order even though fouls occuring simultaneously with the snap don't have a spot.

I can't imagine this being enforced as a PSK situation, but I've been wrong before. The foul occurs simultaneous with the snap and usually the basic spot is the previous spot on such fouls.

Without clarification, I'd bring it back and march off 15.

--Rich

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by jrfath
Play from last night...

4th and 13...K is punting.
R brings out their return team...I count...think I have 12 R's, but am not positive. I should have flagged it, counted to make sure, and then it would have been Illegal Substitution (5 yards). But I am unable to confirm 12 players before the punt.
K punts the ball...during the punt, I am able to recount, and R does indeed have 12 (DRATS!). So I drop my flag.
R ends the play with the ball.
After the play, I tell the referee we have 12 R players...therefore illegal participation.

IS THIS A PSK ENFORCEMENT (go to the end of the kick, penalize the 15 yards on R, and it is their ball 1st and 10)?

Or it is enforced from the previous spot like a loose ball play. Penalize R 15 yards, which in turn gives K a first down?

12 players is legal is Canada, and is in fact, quite normal. 13 (1 extra) is Illegal Substitution and is 10 yards from PLS, DR.