RTP enforcement

[Rich]

I am going to post a few plays to get us away from arguing with the coach in the other thread and talking football.

This is pretty basic, but I just wanted to throw this out for discussion.

A quarterback rolls out right, I'm following him. As he nears the sideline, he throws the ball downfield, takes two steps out of bounds, and gets a two handed shove in the back while well out of bounds. I throw a flag.

LJ comes up and tells me that the pass was intercepted and the interceptor stepped out of bounds before the hit on the QB. (While this would normally be quite rare, the pass was quite short to the sidelines and the hit on the passer was WAY late.)

So, how would this be enforced?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I am going to post a few plays to get us away from arguing with the coach in the other thread and talking football.

This is pretty basic, but I just wanted to throw this out for discussion.

A quarterback rolls out right, I'm following him. As he nears the sideline, he throws the ball downfield, takes two steps out of bounds, and gets a two handed shove in the back while well out of bounds. I throw a flag.

LJ comes up and tells me that the pass was intercepted and the interceptor stepped out of bounds before the hit on the QB. (While this would normally be quite rare, the pass was quite short to the sidelines and the hit on the passer was WAY late.)

So, how would this be enforced?

CANADIAN RULING:

I do not believe that RTP can be flagged once B goes out of bounds. There can still be a flag for UR, but I would not rule RTP. Since B had already intercepted the ball, and in fact, had ended the play, the UR is post-COP, and is enforced 15 yards back from the Point Ball Dead (dead ball spot), 1D/10 for B.

[Theisey]

I agree, not RTP.
Enforce from the end of team-B's return after the INT.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

RTP cannot be flagged once B intercepts the ball. There can still be a flag for UR, but it is not RTP. Since B had already intercepted the ball, and in fact, had ended the play, the UR is post-COP, and is enforced 15 yards back from the Point Ball Dead (dead ball spot), 1D/10 for B.

Canadian Ruling, con'd

I am not sure it is accurate to say that RTP passer cannot be flagged once B intercepts the ball. There is no rules verbiage to that effect. I believe QBs should get the same protection whether the ball is dead or intercepted.

However, you are correct that the rules for applying UR mean that if the ball is intercepted then B will keep it.

It is interesting that a roughing the kicker does have an exception to the normal UR application rules and even though most RTK occurs after the ball is in flight we still consider the foul as if it occured prior to the ball being in flight.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

Canadian Ruling, con'd

I am not sure it is accurate to say that RTP passer cannot be flagged once B intercepts the ball. There is no rules verbiage to that effect. I believe QBs should get the same protection whether the ball is dead or intercepted.

However, you are correct that the rules for applying UR mean that if the ball is intercepted then B will keep it.

It is interesting that a roughing the kicker does have an exception to the normal UR application rules and even though most RTK occurs after the ball is in flight we still consider the foul as if it occured prior to the ball being in flight.

Good catch. Editted to include the OB event.

Given that B went OB, then the passer was hit, I do not have RTP.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Good catch. Editted to include the OB event.

Given that B went OB, then the passer was hit, I do not have RTP.

Canadian ruling, con'd

I still respectfully disagree. If the QB happens to throw an incompletion and get hits in what would be considered RTP, it is still RTP even though the ball is dead.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So, how would this be enforced?

I'm a rookie, so let me play. The foul was post-change of possession, so B keeps the ball. Dead ball, personal foul, unnecessary roughness (or late hit out of bounds), 15 yds from the end of the run, first down (and 10 for B).

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

Canadian ruling, con'd

I still respectfully disagree. If the QB happens to throw an incompletion and get hits in what would be considered RTP, it is still RTP even though the ball is dead.

This could be a play that you have to see.

You might call RTP. I am near certain that I wouldn't call RTP; there's too much time and too many events after the release, imho, for RTP. Rather, I have a generic UR.

[kdf5]

2-32-11...A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. He continues
to be a passer until the legal forward pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play.

Since he didn't move to participate, he's a passer until the pass ends. Sounds like a PF, not RTP.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kdf5

2-32-11...A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. He continues
to be a passer until the legal forward pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play.

Since he didn't move to participate, he's a passer until the pass ends. Sounds like a PF, not RTP.

Bingo. The bolded phrase is what I was waiting for. And that's what I called. Personal foul, half-the-distance on B, enforced from the end of the return, B possession.

The title of the thread was mainly a diversion.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This could be a play that you have to see.

You might call RTP. I am near certain that I wouldn't call RTP; there's too much time and too many events after the release, imho, for RTP. Rather, I have a generic UR.

My point was that if the events satisfied the criteria for RTP, the fact that the ball was intercepted or dead (or both) would not change that.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43

My point was that if the events satisfied the criteria for RTP, the fact that the ball was intercepted or dead (or both) would not change that.

I see. I was commenting on this particular situation as posted by the OP. I read your comments as considerations for RTP.

What would you call on this play? Or do you have to see the play?

[rngrck]

I would agree with Rich's reply for a PF, since he is not a passer any longer. Late hit, PF.

[a4caster]

Now this will really get guys wound up...where is the enforcement point (and remember the heated discussion about spots)?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by a4caster

Now this will really get guys wound up...where is the enforcement point (and remember the heated discussion about spots)?

Succeeding spot, since the hit was (according to my wing) just after the interceptor stepped out of bounds.

Had it been a live ball foul (post-possession) it would've been the same unless the return went past the flag. Then it would be all-but-one, which would've been no problem, since there was a flag at the spot.