Right Enforcement?

[gtwbam]

Indeed the score does count.

And A does have the option of enforcing B's foul on the try or the kickoff.

However B's options for enforcement on the unsportsmanship conduct by A will apply to both the try and succeeding kickoff as well

The options given to B on the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty by A is not determined whether the player crossed the goal line, its determined by when it occurred, whether it was before or after the ready-for-play whistle for the try. In this case its before.

[Bullycon]

Originally Posted by gtwbam

The options given to B on the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty by A is not determined whether the player crossed the goal line, its determined by when it occurred, whether it was before or after the ready-for-play whistle for the try. In this case its before.

Rule 8-2-4: "If after a touchdown-scoring play and prior to the initial ready-for-play signal for the try, either team commits any foul for which the basic spot is the succeeding spot, the offended team may have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the penalty enforced on the subsequent kickoff."

If the foul occurs before he crosses the goal line, then it is not after the play, it is during the play. Thus, B's only option is to enforce on the try.

[gtwbam]

Since all unsportmanlike penalties are treated as dead ball fouls, this would be the exception to the rule, and give B the option to have the penalty assessed either on the try or subsequent kickoff.

[ref1986]

Originally Posted by gtwbam

Since all unsportmanlike penalties are treated as dead ball fouls, this would be the exception to the rule, and give B the option to have the penalty assessed either on the try or subsequent kickoff.

They are not treated as dead ball fouls and you won't that language anywhere in the rules. They are enforced from the succeeding spot. The difference is subtle, and relevant only in a play like this.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ref1986

They are not treated as dead ball fouls and you won't that language anywhere in the rules. They are enforced from the succeeding spot. The difference is subtle, and relevant only in a play like this.

And that's exactly why A's USC foul can't bypass the try.

[Rich]

The NFHS "Bin Book" (High School Football Penalty Enforcements Made Easy) treats a live ball foul (treated as a dead ball) as a foul that can be applied on the kickoff, as well.

Redding says: "Penalties for nonplayer and unsportsmanlike fouls, by either team during a play that ends in a touchdown (8-2-4)" can be applied on the kickoff.

[Robert Goodman]

Are you all agreed that the order of presentation of the options is correct? A's choice of the live ball foul penalty, followed by B's choice of the live ball foul treated as dead ball foul penalty?

Also, might the BBW call have been incorrect (insufficient detail in the example)? Suppose the OL were pulling "flat" enough that the contact could be said to be in the neutral zone, and was in the FBZ and the ball was still in the FBZ, and B1 was a DL. ("B1 comes up" suggests it wasn't a player from the line, but that's not a definite inference.) I remember in Fed there's a difference in some case between clipping, BBW, and use of hands in the back regarding treatment of contact by A and by B, where A was allowed something B wasn't, but I don't remember which it was.

Robert

[VALJ]

Both A and B players can legally BBW if all players involved are in the FBZ and on their LOS at the snap, as long as contact is in the FBZ before the zone goes away. Clipping is legally permitted only by A linemen on the LOS and in the zone on B players on the LOS and in the zone, if contact is in the FBZ before it vanishes. Blocking in the back is legally permitted only for A players on the LOS and in the zone on any B player in the zone at the time of the snap, if contact is in the FBZ before it vanishes.

The key difference between clipping and BIB is that only defensive players in the FBZ and on their LOS can be clipped, but any defensive player in the FBZ - whether on the LOS or not - can be legally BIBed. They key difference between those two and BBW is that a B player can legally BBW, but he can't legally clip or BIB.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by gtwbam

However B's options for enforcement on the unsportsmanship conduct by A will apply to both the try and succeeding kickoff as well

The options given to B on the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty by A is not determined whether the player crossed the goal line, its determined by when it occurred, whether it was before or after the ready-for-play whistle for the try. In this case its before.

That's wrong. The USC before the score is the succeeding spot only. Bullycon has it right. A can bridge the BBW to the KO or have it on the try, B can only take A's USC on the try only.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

That's wrong. The USC before the score is the succeeding spot only. Bullycon has it right. A can bridge the BBW to the KO or have it on the try, B can only take A's USC on the try only.

Nobody disagrees about the penalty for BBW.

True, the USC by A happened during the down. But since it is treated as a dead-ball foul, 8-2-4 applies to it (Bullycon quoted the rule above). Thus, B has the option to enforce the penalty on the KO. Hence, the Reddings ruling also quoted.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Nobody disagrees about the penalty for BBW.

True, the USC by A happened during the down. But since it is treated as a dead-ball foul, 8-2-4 applies to it (Bullycon quoted the rule above). Thus, B has the option to enforce the penalty on the KO. Hence, the Reddings ruling also quoted.

The rule says: If AFTER a TD scoring play, the foul is committed. This foul occurred before the TD. Sorry, but Redding and the bin book are wrong in this one. There are no rules that allow the USC to bridge to the KO.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kdf5

The rule says: If AFTER a TD scoring play, the foul is committed. This foul occurred before the TD. Sorry, but Redding and the bin book are wrong in this one. There are no rules that allow the USC to bridge to the KO.

I trust those sources over any other. That's how they will be enforced (correctly, IMO) in my games. And it also matches the spirit of the rule change, as well.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kdf5

That's wrong. The USC before the score is the succeeding spot only. Bullycon has it right. A can bridge the BBW to the KO or have it on the try, B can only take A's USC on the try only.

Redding and the Bin Book (from Referee) agree that the USC can now be applied on the kickoff.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Redding and the Bin Book (from Referee) agree that the USC can now be applied on the kickoff.

Where does the rule book say that?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Where does the rule book say that?

The rule book is frequently wrong or incomplete. That said, since I am presenting on various topics (including this one) at an association meeting tomorrow night I've emailed the state office for how we're to enforce this. I know how I see it, but I'd rather see consistency than see my viewpoint be the correct one.