Good Block or penalty?

[bigjohn]

Kid gets up shaking the cobwebs and you "think" maybe it was not quite IHC.

I really do think there are too many OHC not called and too many excuses as to why they are not.

40 years of playing and coaching and studying the rules makes me a clown. OK, I get it now!

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Kid gets up shaking the cobwebs and you "think" maybe it was not quite IHC.

Sorry coach, I am not sure what you mean. Yeah, kid gets up shaking cobwebs - that doesn't tell me anything about whether there was illegal helmet contact. Kids get up looking a bit dazed for any number of reasons, right?

Are you actually suggesting that in fact we should wait until the kid gets up, realize he look a little punch drunk , then throw a flag, even if we did not see any illegal helmet contact, because the kid looks a bit dazed?

I know I am kinda of belaboring the point, but I am kind of assuming you mean something other than what you appear to be saying, hence my comment about this maybe being some kind of inside joke that I am not getting - I don't really read the forum religiously, so I might have missed something.

[bigjohn]

I am saying, if you are not sure enough to throw the flag but the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet, then it is pretty good bet you should have called IHC. Is it too late? no. Would anyone throw the flag? no. I have had officials tell me that helmet on helmet contact is not a foul. I agree that it could happen incidentally, but most are because a blocker or tackler drove some part of their helmet into an opponent. To say that I don't know what I am talking about because I am just a coach is appalling and to say I am a clown or a troll because I am willing to say that it is not called but a very small percentage of the time is BS. I did post a study by the ATA showing that I am right.

[bigjohn]

http://admin.xosn.com/attachments1/4112.pdf

I know this is NCAA stuff but I would say the numbers are similar. Read the article on IHC




As demonstrated with
other rules, coaches are more
prone to react to penalties
that are called. For example,
if multiple violations such as
offside or holding occur
during the game, those will
generally be addressed by
the coaching staff the
following week to correct
those mistakes and hopefully
prevent them from occurring
again. However, it is human
nature not to address issues
that may not be brought to
our attention. When headdown
contact and spearing
fouls are not enforced and
addressed, student athletes
develop poor habits in
blocking and tackling. If left
uncorrected, those actions
may lead to potentially
serious injuries.

[bigjohn]

Editor’s note: This column was
written by Ron Courson, director of
sports medicine at the University of
Georgia.

This Guy must be a Clown.

[Berkut]

I think I am going to pass on this discussion at this point. You seem a lot more interested in making this some kind of personal thing than discussing rules and IHC.

[bigjohn]

My point all along is that it is not getting called when it happens. I hear excuses why it isn't called. I post data to prove it isn't getting called and that is me being personal? I am the one that has been made light of here.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Editor’s note: This column was
written by Ron Courson, director of
sports medicine at the University of
Georgia.

This Guy must be a Clown.

Huh?

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I am saying, if you are not sure enough to throw the flag but the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet, then it is pretty good bet you should have called IHC.

If I am not sure enough to throw the flag based on what I saw, then I am not throwing the flag no matter what the players look like when they get up.

And no, I would not at all agree that a kid shaking off cobwebs is a a "pretty good bet" that I should have called IHC. Is the reverse true - if I throw IHC, and then the kids pop up and look fine, should I wave it off?

Is it too late? no. Would anyone throw the flag? no.

I would hope not. Throwing a flag based on how the players respond to a play rather than what you actually see would turn the game into a drama production, rather than a football game. And I suck at evaluating acting ability.

I have had officials tell me that helmet on helmet contact is not a foul.

Helmet on helmet contact happens on most blocks and tackles. Of course it is not a foul. The rulebook certainly does not define helmet on helmet contact as a foul. If it defined it in such a manner, it would certainly make it a lot easier to call, but I think the game of football wouldn't really look much like it does now.

I agree that it could happen incidentally, but most are because a blocker or tackler drove some part of their helmet into an opponent.

No, mostly it happens because when two people collide with one another, their heads tend to bounce around. I don't think I could make certain my helmet does not hit someone else helmet when I am tackling them if I tried.

To say that I don't know what I am talking about because I am just a coach is appalling

I haven't said any such thing.

and to say I am a clown or a troll because I am willing to say that it is not called but a very small percentage of the time is BS.

I didn't say that either.

I did post a study by the ATA showing that I am right.

I do not agree that the study you posted shows at all that your previous comments about how IHC ought to be called is right, in fact, I think it shows the opposite.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I am saying, if you are not sure enough to throw the flag but the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet, then it is pretty good bet you should have called IHC.

This, from an officiating stand point, is utter crap. It makes the assumption that a player getting dazed, a helmet coming off, or a loud crack can only happen due to IHC. That is a HUGE assumption that has no basis in fact. You just as well could assume any time a player gets up holding his neck after getting pulled to the ground is because of a face mask grab despite the fact that head can snap around because of hand contact to the helmet or a grab on the inside front of the jersey/shoulder pads rather than grabbing and twisting the mask. The bottom line is we can only call what we see and what we see without a doubt.

The article you posted is revealing in the problem of it not being called enough. We already know IHC is potentially devastating. And the number of times it was called does seem low. Of course the "study" does not tell us how many situations arose in which it could have been called, or how many times the call was passed on because the viewing angle was bad, or the contact was not initiated with the helmet, or the variety of other reasons that you have been told about repeatedly here but refuse to accept why it may not be called.

Do I think IHC is probably not called enough? Absolutely. Do I think the majority of the video examples you have shown us do not rise to the level of it being called for a variety of reasons? Absolutely. You seem to continue with this rant of even if it's close it needs to be called. That's not the way any foul works. Sorry.

[bigjohn]

If we had 11 officials maybe we could get it called, I guess.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

If we had 11 officials maybe we could get it called, I guess.

Not if the only information they had was:
...the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet...

Restated, if the information you provided is the only information they have avaialable, it is unlikely any of the 11 officials would throw a flag.

BJ - Perhaps you should contact your local officials association and work some saturday youth games as an official.
You might just enjoy it...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by KWH

Not if the only information they had was:
...the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet...

Restated, if the information you provided is the only information they have avaialable, it is unlikely any of the 11 officials would throw a flag.

I guess we'd need 22 officials then, each watching a single player.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Kid gets up shaking the cobwebs and you "think" maybe it was not quite IHC.

I really do think there are too many OHC not called and too many excuses as to why they are not.

40 years of playing and coaching and studying the rules makes me a clown. OK, I get it now!

I'm not sure I've seen anyone disagree with your statement that "it's not called enough"...because it probably isn't. Some of us didn't think your examples didn't fit the bill as to what we believe is IHC...that's all. The fact that you are not an official yet seem more than credible enough to literally berate most of us with 10, 20, or even more years of experience because we don't see eye to eye on your examples is what got this started. I'm not sure anyone has thrown an excuse out as to why they may or may not call it either. Unless you KNOW you saw it, when and where you saw it...the flag stays put.

The 40 years of experience on the field and from the sidelines isn't what makes you the clown. The fact that you've slammed everyone here who didn't agree with your every word is. Your incredibly confrontational demeanor must pay big dividends on game day.

[bigjohn]

I do not say a word on game day unless I know there is a misapplication of the rules. I have learned that officials who are not going to call IHC are not going to call it and tell them on game night does not help the situation.
I do not try to show up officials on the field and I will not question calls during a game that are judgment calls.

I have not attacked any one person but I have proven that IHC doesn't get called very often yet I am a bad guy for saying it.