7 players on the LOS

[ChickenOfNC]

What are the opinions of the board about the various methods of counting 7 on the line?

Our association has always done the "4 and 2" method. However, we're switching to counting the backfield this year and signaling less than 5 in the backfield with a fist toward the offense.

While I don't think 4 and 2 is perfect, I just don't feel comfortable with the counting the backfield method. Seems to add unnecessary variables into the equation, as well as pulling my focus away from the LOS - where it should be - into the offensive backfield.

It just seems to me that to ascertain the status of A, I should look at A. Not look at B to figure out what's going on with A.

Thoughts?

[jaybird]

I agree with your thinking. The focus of the LOS officials should be on the LOS. We have the H and L count the number of players on the line on their side of the snapper and signal to each other. If the total is less than 7, we try to count again, then once the snap takes place, both officials will have a flag.

[KWH]

I don't know what you mean by the 4 and 2 method.

However,

Our method is the Referee signals (bent arm with a fist) indicating he has 11 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 4 in the backfield.
Or, if the Referee signals (10 fingers at waist level) indicating he has 10 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 3 in the backfield.

[bisonlj]

Let me preface this by saying I was taught to count the backfield once I have a signal that we have 11 players. It's what I got used to and also makes the most sense to me.

First, you have the QB. Then it's just a quick count of guys in the backfield to make sure you don't have more than 3. I like this method because they are usually more in the open while it's hard for me to sometimes tell if I have 2 or 3 guys on my side of the line because a big tackle can hide a guard and sometimes you just see a mass of bodies at this point.

Besides, I can get to 4 faster than 7.

I'm sure it can be done by counting 7 on the line rather than 4 in the backfield but I'm used to what I've been taught. Every good official I've talked to at all levels says they count the backfield as well. From what I understand counting line (and signalling balance, unbalanced, etc.) are very old mechanics that some people haven't changed. Not sure if that's true but that's what I've been taught.

[Mike L]

We are pretty much like KWH. In addition, the wings will "punch back" if the widest player toward him is in the back field. And one finger up if there is only one running back.

Does it mean I have to get the count/signal early for them (like as the huddle breaks)? Yep.
Does it mean they may have to quickly decide at times if the formation is legal? Yep.
Is that why we make the big bucks? Yep.

Personally, I'd like to go to the new NCAA version of you only care if they have more than 4 in the backfield. Because, does A really gain an advantage by having 4 backs with only 10 guys on the field?

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by KWH

I don't know what you mean by the 4 and 2 method.

However,

Our method is the Referee signals (bent arm with a fist) indicating he has 11 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 4 in the backfield.
Or, if the Referee signals (10 fingers at waist level) indicating he has 10 players, the two wings would then have a flag only if their are more than 3 in the backfield.

4 and 2 = Not counting the center, if I only have two players on the LOS on my side of the center I will flash "2" above my head to the opposite wing. He should flash "4" back to me. If not, we should have flags. If the line is balanced with 3 on each side of the snapper, there is no signal.

[Ed Hickland]

I spent many years as an LJ being frustrated with trying to count players on the LOS. Sometimes you miss a player because the guy next to him is bigger and/or taller or players are positioned such that seeing everyone is difficult. First thing I did when I became an R was tell the wings they did not have to count players on the LOS.

Reason is U has to count five players numbered 50-79, so, why not complete the 11 count. The R is in the offensive backfield and can easily count 11. So, we depend on the R & U having the 11 count. The wings indicate whether the last player is on or off. The R counts players in the backfield depending on the wings to indicate whether the last an is on or off.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

4 and 2 = Not counting the center, if I only have two players on the LOS on my side of the center I will flash "2" above my head to the opposite wing. He should flash "4" back to me. If not, we should have flags. If the line is balanced with 3 on each side of the snapper, there is no signal.

While I have never tried the 4 and 2 method, I believe I can safely say you may find our method to work a little crisper as, all the wings need do is look at the signal by the White hat and, then, count the Offensive backfield. It is really bang bang and pretty fool proof.
So, to recap our method. The R and U count the offense. R and U signal each other with a bent arm and a fist. (I as a Referee, will hold the signal up until darn near the snap.) The wings note the signal, and count the backfield. Prior to all this the H, L, & B count the defense and signal each other, Typically, they will signal each other right after the offense breaks the huddle.
I can tell you it sure as heck took longer to type this than it takes to do on the field.

[Robert Goodman]

The trouble with counting players in the backfield is that it's possible to be neither on the line nor in the backfield. I suppose the comeback to that is that because you're looking for players in such a position anyway (on the finding of which the formation is illegal regardless), you count the backs only if there's nobody in such a position. Is that in fact your answer?

Robert in the Bronx

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by ChickenOfNC

...two players on the LOS on my side of the center I will flash "2" above my head to the opposite wing. He should flash "4" ...

[smart alec comment alert]

But if there are seven on the line, won't there always be three on either side of the center? I mean... if there are two on your side of the snapper and four on the other side of the snapper, then the snapper is not the center?

[jaybird]

then the snapper is not the center?

That's why he is the snapper and should be referred to as such. A center is a tall basketball player.

[ChickenOfNC]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

[smart alec comment alert]

But if there are seven on the line, won't there always be three on either side of the center? I mean... if there are two on your side of the snapper and four on the other side of the snapper, then the snapper is not the center?

If you'll go back and look at my whole post, I referred to the "center" early in the post, and the "snapper" at the end. Sometimes an old bit player/fan jargon creeps back into the vocab.

[JasonTX]

Thankfully we us NCAA rules and counting line players is no longer required. But last year we counted the players on our side of the snapper.

If I had 3 players I would touch the bill of my cap. If both wings gave the same signal all was good.

If I had 4 players on my side of the snapper I would place my hand on my cheek.

If I only had 2 players I would just hold up 2 fingers.

So basically, both wings would add the numbers up and both would have a flag. I only work R now, but when I worked on the wing I had my own responsibilities and waiting to see the R or U signal they had 11 to me away from my area. Also I am at the huddle counting and myself and the U signal pretty quickly so that we can move on to other things so it would be possible that the wings would miss the signal.

This is just the way we did it and whatever works best for you is great.

[KWH]

Robert-
The referee is telling you there are 11 players. Therefore, ther wing are merely dtermining if there are less than 6 on the line. As for the player in "no-mans land," Yes, the wings will determine if the formation is legal. So, I think perhaps you may have answered your own question?

Jason-
Just to clarify. For the method I described above to be successful, the R has to hold his signal much longer. It can't be the old quick fist at the umpire and "Move on to other things," Rather, the R just holds his signal longer, sometimes until the snap.
We have found it to be very succsesful. However like you said, whatever works for you is great!
As you likely know, none of them work if a crew member is sluffing off on counting and just signaling.

[Big2Cat]

"The referee is telling you there are 11 players. Therefore, ther wing are merely dtermining if there are less than 6 on the line. As for the player in "no-mans land," Yes, the wings will determine if the formation is legal. So, I think perhaps you may have answered your own question? "



This doesn't matter much anymore in college since the rule was re-written that there be no more than 4 in the back field. So, 6 on the line is no longer a foul if a team only has 10 players. With that being the case, I can't even see a reason for the Umpire to keep his signal up for the wings. Confirm 11 (or less) with the R and you are good to go.