Snap/Dead ball fouls

[Brandon Kincer]

are fouls that are simoultaneous with the snap dead ball fouls?

[Ref inSoCA]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

are fouls that are simoultaneous with the snap dead ball fouls?

You answered your own question.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Ref inSoCA

You answered your own question.

Wrong.

2-16-2a Types of fouls are: Dead ball-a foul which occurs in the time interval after a down has ended and before the ball has is next snapped or free kicked. (example: false start)

2-16-2i Simultaneous with the snap-an act which becomes a foul when the ball is snapped or free kicked. (example: illegal motion)

The motion is not a foul until the snap (simultaneous). A player could go in motion toward the line and then change his direction away from the line before the snap and it would be ok. It is the snap that makes the motion toward the line a foul. This has nothing to do with a dead ball foul.

[jjrye22]

I guess one could however say that an illegal snap is a dead ball foul that only occurs simultaneously with the snap.

There was some discussion with the 'wrong ball' type illegal trick plays, or where the fake substitutions are used to confuse the defense. Some people said that we let the play stand and call it back, but others said that we should shut it down at the snap.
I don't think there was a general consensus about which way to handle it, and each crew/chapter/association should have their own guideline.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

I guess one could however say that an illegal snap is a dead ball foul that only occurs simultaneously with the snap.

An illegal snap is a dead ball foul as the foul occurs when the snap infraction occurs. Think about it, on an illegal snap if the play continues, the play would be illegal because the snap was not proper.

There was some discussion with the 'wrong ball' type illegal trick plays, or where the fake substitutions are used to confuse the defense. Some people said that we let the play stand and call it back, but others said that we should shut it down at the snap.
I don't think there was a general consensus about which way to handle it, and each crew/chapter/association should have their own guideline.

I think you mean where you have something like the "where's the puck" play where a player indicates to the sideline that some piece of equipment is wrong or missing as he walks to the sideline at the same time the ball is snapped to another player and the player walking toward the sideline starts downfield and catches a pass.

This play should be shutdown immediately primarily to avoid confusion. If you let it go someone may question why an unsportsmanlike foul is being enforced from the previous spot.

[Forksref]

I guess one could however say that an illegal snap is a dead ball foul that only occurs simultaneously with the snap.


Wrong.

2-40-1 A snap is the legal act of passing the ball backward from the position of the ground.

It can't be simultaneous with the snap (which is legal) when you have an illegal snap. They are 2 different things. You can't have an illegal snap and a snap on the same play.

It all goes back to definitions. I like the old expression: READ RULE 2

[Reffing Rev.]

Another one that commonly confuses officials, around here anyway is the illegal formation foul. A formation is only illegal when the ball is snapped, therefore it is a simultaneous with the snap - live ball, foul. Around here I think officials get confused because the foul signal is the same as for a false start, so they kill it.

In a conversation with one of the younger officials this past fall he asked me, "Why not just go ahead and kill it since the play can't stand anyway?" Well, if the defense gets a sack they'll likely decline the penalty, or if there is a change of possession, or if the defense makes it a double foul, then the offense gets saved the yardage...ya know all of those reasons why no live-ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

Things you can blow dead prior to the snap: (FEDUI)
False Start
Encroachment
Delay of Game
USC
Illegal Substitution (Replaced player not leaving immediately aka 12 men in the huddle, player leaves the field on wrong line)

Each of those is a foul in itself without relation to a snap, that is what makes them dead ball fouls.

[Brandon Kincer]

I guess what im asking is what fouls are blown dead when they are simoultaneous with the snap (i.e. illegal motion/shift)

I worked a game with a very expierenced official who is high school certified and he blew an illegal motion dead. Is this correct?

[Welpe]

A foul that is simultaneous with the snap is never blown dead. These are fouls that do not become fouls until the ball is snapped, such as illegal motion and illegal shift because there is time for the offending team to correct infraction before the ball is snapped. On fouls simultaneous with the snap, the ball remains live so you simply throw your flag and officiate the rest of the play.

No, blowing an illegal motion foul dead is not correct because it is not a dead ball foul. Only dead ball fouls are blown dead because they prevent the ball from being legally put into play.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I guess what im asking is what fouls are blown dead when they are simoultaneous with the snap (i.e. illegal motion/shift)

I can only think of two:
1) Snap Infraction (Which is in reality a dead ball foul)
2) As soon as the ball is snapped for The "Where's the Tee" play that Ed mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I worked a game with a very expierenced official who is high school certified and he blew an illegal motion dead. Is this correct?

NO, an illegal motion is a live ball foul which occurs simultaneousley with the snap and would be enforced from the basic spot at the completion of the play
However, is it possible that this certified official actually blew a false start dead? Restated, did the motion man turn upfield before the snap? If so this is a false start and he would have been correct if he blew the play dead!

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by KWH

I can only think of two:
1) Snap Infraction (Which is in reality a dead ball foul)
2) As soon as the ball is snapped for The "Where's the Tee" play that Ed mentioned above.



NO, an illegal motion is a live ball foul which occurs simultaneousley with the snap and would be enforced from the basic spot at the completion of the play
However, is it possible that this certified official actually blew a false start dead? Restated, did the motion man turn upfield before the snap? If so this is a false start and he would have been correct if he blew the play dead!

Think of it this way:

Dead ball fouls such as false start and snap infraction cannot be corrected. Once a snap is improper it cannot be re-done or undone. Same with a false start.

Fouls that occur with the snap can be corrected before the snap. Motion that is seemingly illegal, the player has the opportunity to reset for that second before the snap. An illegal formation can be corrected up until one second before the snap.

I did mention killing the "where's the puck" play because if you let the play continue to the end and say a touchdown is scored, you will be in deep sneakers because a USC, by rule, is enforced for the succeeding spot, therefore, the offense will be rewarded for their bad conduct.

Lastly, what the experienced official may have blown dead was a false start by the initial motion of the player, or, it could have simply been a mistake. It happens.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by KWH

However, is it possible that this certified official actually blew a false start dead? Restated, did the motion man turn upfield before the snap? If so this is a false start and he would have been correct if he blew the play dead!

Not quite sure what you meant by this. A motion man turning upfield is illegal motion; however, if his action causes a defensive player to encroach, it becomes a false start (7-1-7b).

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Not quite sure what you meant by this. A motion man turning upfield is illegal motion; however, if his action causes a defensive player to encroach, it becomes a false start (7-1-7b).

I would say it depends entirely on whether the turn is determined to simulate action at the snap. Very little is gained by allowing a quick turn upfield to continue. It's better to shut it down and let them try again with an add'l 5 yds to go.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Wrong.

I think what you're missing in Ref's response is his implication you can't have both a snap (which makes the ball live) and a dead ball foul (which prevents the ball from becoming live) in the same "action". Clearly you know this, but I think Ref was trying to get Brandon to figure that out by looking at what he was asking.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Not quite sure what you meant by this. A motion man turning upfield is illegal motion; however, if his action causes a defensive player to encroach, it becomes a false start (7-1-7b).

I re-read what I wrote and I was a little grey.
My point was it may be possible what Brandon is interpreting as a "Certified Official" shutting down an illegal motion play was in reality shut down due to a False Start. I wasn't there, if I was I could tell you exactly what happend.
For, as most all of us know, for a motion man to turn up field prior to the snap is NOT initself a reason to shut down a play (unless he encroaches) if the action of the motion man does in any way simulate action at the snap and/or causes B to encroach, the play should be shut down as a False Start.
For what it is is worth, it may have been more productive if this conversation would have occured between Brandon and the "Experianced Certified Official" at the time, at half-time, in the locker room, at the bar, or on the phone. It most certainly should occur between Brandon and his mentor.