Dead ball fouls prior to the snap

[kentref]

Subvarsity game yesterday. Team B has 11 on the field and B11 goes off the field and then re-enters prior to the snap.
Just after B11 re-enters the field of play, the HL tosses his flag for a false start on Team A.
As R, I tossed my flag upon seeing B11 re-enter. My whistle unfortunately did not come before my HL had tossed his flag.
3 man mechanics - I (as R) was counting B, that's why I was paying attention to B11.

I shut down the play and after talking with my HL, enforced only the penalty against B for illegal substitution. My rationale was that that foul occurred prior to the false start and I was shutting the play down before the false start occurred, even though my whistle technically didn't sound before the HL tossed his flag for the Team A false start.

Did I handle this correctly? Thoughts, comments?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by kentref

Subvarsity game yesterday. Team B has 11 on the field and B11 goes off the field and then re-enters prior to the snap.
Just after B11 re-enters the field of play, the HL tosses his flag for a false start on Team A.
As R, I tossed my flag upon seeing B11 re-enter. My whistle unfortunately did not come before my HL had tossed his flag.
3 man mechanics - I (as R) was counting B, that's why I was paying attention to B11.

I shut down the play and after talking with my HL, enforced only the penalty against B for illegal substitution. My rationale was that that foul occurred prior to the false start and I was shutting the play down before the false start occurred, even though my whistle technically didn't sound before the HL tossed his flag for the Team A false start.

Did I handle this correctly? Thoughts, comments?

What exactly did B11 do wrong? I'm not following (or seeing a foul).

[Theisey]

I believe you handled the apparent illegal substitution incorrectly. There is no foul in this unique case.
The Redding guide covers this a lot better than our rule/case books should you have a copy.

You B11 never really lost his status as a team-B player, because no one really replaced him nor did an on coming sub tell him to leave.

[bigwes68]

I think you got it right, per casebook play 3.7.3 Situation A:

"B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: In (a) B11 has committed illegal substitution by leaving on the opponent's sideline. (3-7-2) In (b), once he left the field, he was no longer a player, and by coming back onto the field, is an illegal substitute. (3-7-3) If done intentionally to gain an advantage, it is illegal participation foul or it could be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap in either (a) or (b) and participates, it is a live-ball foul for illegal participation. (8-5-1f; 9-6-4 a and d)"

Had the same thing happen in a game I was working early in the season, except it was an A player that went off the field and came back on.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by bigwes68

I think you got it right, per casebook play 3.7.3 Situation A:

"B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: In (a) B11 has committed illegal substitution by leaving on the opponent's sideline. (3-7-2) In (b), once he left the field, he was no longer a player, and by coming back onto the field, is an illegal substitute. (3-7-3) If done intentionally to gain an advantage, it is illegal participation foul or it could be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap in either (a) or (b) and participates, it is a live-ball foul for illegal participation. (8-5-1f; 9-6-4 a and d)"

Had the same thing happen in a game I was working early in the season, except it was an A player that went off the field and came back on.

That said, I believe we've tossed this one around here using both sets of rules, and passed them up the chain, and learned that the statement in this caseplay, "once he left the field, he was no longer a player" is not supported by the rules. Only if said player was off the field at the moment the ball was snapped would he be unable to participate in the play.

In fact, I believe we were told last year that this caseplay was in error and was going to be removed from the book. Apparently it wasn't, but I believe it is still in error.

[FootballRef05]

Rule Book 3-7-3 Pg 42

During the same dead ball interval, no subsitiute sale become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a BD foul occurs, there is a charged time out or the period ends.

The situation as explained is Ill substitution by rule.

[Theisey]

I've got hand written (in my 2005 case book) that 3.7.3.Sit:A was changed along with other updates.
Can't find the formal stuff from NF, so I can't say from whom I received these changes from.

3.7.3.Sit:A has an asterisk again for 2006, so they were tinkering with the wording.
Based on the track record so far this year... my take is the 2006 update is again incorrect. I base opinion on the how the rule is written and on the Redding guide details in his chapter on substitution and participation.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by FootballRef05

Rule Book 3-7-3 Pg 42

During the same dead ball interval, no subsitiute sale become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a BD foul occurs, there is a charged time out or the period ends.

The situation as explained is Ill substitution by rule.

The key to understanding why this rule does not apply to the OP is in the definition of substitute. The player in the OP did indeed "withdraw". But he did not re-enter as a substitute. He simply re-entered.

This is illegal: B20 hustles on the field and tells B22 to leave. B22 leaves the field, and then a few seconds later enters the field and tells B33 to leave.

The OP is not illegal.