Snap/Dead ball fouls

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I guess what im asking is what fouls are blown dead when they are simoultaneous with the snap (i.e. illegal motion/shift)

I can only think of two:
1) Snap Infraction (Which is in reality a dead ball foul)
2) As soon as the ball is snapped for The "Where's the Tee" play that Ed mentioned above.

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I worked a game with a very expierenced official who is high school certified and he blew an illegal motion dead. Is this correct?

NO, an illegal motion is a live ball foul which occurs simultaneousley with the snap and would be enforced from the basic spot at the completion of the play
However, is it possible that this certified official actually blew a false start dead? Restated, did the motion man turn upfield before the snap? If so this is a false start and he would have been correct if he blew the play dead!

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by KWH

I can only think of two:
1) Snap Infraction (Which is in reality a dead ball foul)
2) As soon as the ball is snapped for The "Where's the Tee" play that Ed mentioned above.



NO, an illegal motion is a live ball foul which occurs simultaneousley with the snap and would be enforced from the basic spot at the completion of the play
However, is it possible that this certified official actually blew a false start dead? Restated, did the motion man turn upfield before the snap? If so this is a false start and he would have been correct if he blew the play dead!

Think of it this way:

Dead ball fouls such as false start and snap infraction cannot be corrected. Once a snap is improper it cannot be re-done or undone. Same with a false start.

Fouls that occur with the snap can be corrected before the snap. Motion that is seemingly illegal, the player has the opportunity to reset for that second before the snap. An illegal formation can be corrected up until one second before the snap.

I did mention killing the "where's the puck" play because if you let the play continue to the end and say a touchdown is scored, you will be in deep sneakers because a USC, by rule, is enforced for the succeeding spot, therefore, the offense will be rewarded for their bad conduct.

Lastly, what the experienced official may have blown dead was a false start by the initial motion of the player, or, it could have simply been a mistake. It happens.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by KWH

However, is it possible that this certified official actually blew a false start dead? Restated, did the motion man turn upfield before the snap? If so this is a false start and he would have been correct if he blew the play dead!

Not quite sure what you meant by this. A motion man turning upfield is illegal motion; however, if his action causes a defensive player to encroach, it becomes a false start (7-1-7b).

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Not quite sure what you meant by this. A motion man turning upfield is illegal motion; however, if his action causes a defensive player to encroach, it becomes a false start (7-1-7b).

I would say it depends entirely on whether the turn is determined to simulate action at the snap. Very little is gained by allowing a quick turn upfield to continue. It's better to shut it down and let them try again with an add'l 5 yds to go.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Not quite sure what you meant by this. A motion man turning upfield is illegal motion; however, if his action causes a defensive player to encroach, it becomes a false start (7-1-7b).

I re-read what I wrote and I was a little grey.
My point was it may be possible what Brandon is interpreting as a "Certified Official" shutting down an illegal motion play was in reality shut down due to a False Start. I wasn't there, if I was I could tell you exactly what happend.
For, as most all of us know, for a motion man to turn up field prior to the snap is NOT initself a reason to shut down a play (unless he encroaches) if the action of the motion man does in any way simulate action at the snap and/or causes B to encroach, the play should be shut down as a False Start.
For what it is is worth, it may have been more productive if this conversation would have occured between Brandon and the "Experianced Certified Official" at the time, at half-time, in the locker room, at the bar, or on the phone. It most certainly should occur between Brandon and his mentor.

[Texas Aggie]

are fouls that are simoultaneous with the snap dead ball fouls?

NCAA: some are and some aren't. The ones that aren't (like illegal motion and illegal shift) are not always simultaneous with the snap but could be.

When in doubt -- when its on the offense -- shut it down. That's how we do it, anyway. The last thing I want to do is bring back a TD and most coaches aren't going to know which fouls are dead balls and which ones are live. I'll deal with the ones that do by saying something like, "Coach, if we missed that play (as far as not letting it happen) there wasn't any harm to your team absent your total speculation on what might have happened -- plus, nobody got hurt since we killed it." He's going to concede the latter point.