Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[Brandon Kincer]

First off I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. I think its obviously a heated topic. With that being said........

What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal". As for the other official he knew that he was instantly in the wrong. Im not one to down someone but he never has been a gentleman I liked working with. I didn't mention this before but neither of these officials were certified. The white hat was certified in VHSL basketball. Not football.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

I didn't just "stand around and feel sorry for myself". However I was questioning if what the white hat did was ethical. As I said, I will be recieving my first patch this year as a certified high school league official and im bringing things that I expierenced in rec to you guys so you can help answer some questions I have.

[ajmc]

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.

ajmc,
Thanks for repling to my post. I see your point in getting off topic a bit on this thread however like I said, I am new at this and I have been offered a job with the VHSL (My High School Level State Association). I have one year under my belt and I do appreciate the advice you are giving me because I do feel this will benefit me in the long run. Please don't take me wrong though. I am not trying to "pick at a scab". Im just trying to find out the best thing to do in a situation such as this. Again Thank you for your advice.

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.

Thanks for the advice. I have never had a REAL problem with this but should it arise I think this is exactly what ill do.

I did overturn an ejection a few seasons ago. We were in the middle of a scrum and my partner and I saw the same activity and he said we needed to eject a player. I disagreed. Again, a case of two officials that disagree on the same play. And on that one, I won. When the WH has identical coverage with another official and disagrees with the other official, the WH is going to prevail -- right or wrong. It's happened once in many years this way.

Where I live, I recruit people to my crew and I also deal with establishing and maintaining our schedule with commissioners and athletic directors. Let me say this: I may have no specific authority during a game to stop someone from ejecting a player or coach or calling any penalty, but I also have no requirement to keep an official who makes poor choices in this area on my crew, either. I've fired 2 crew members in the past 5 years, so depending on how your area works, getting in a pissing match with the referee may not be a wise idea if you want to work on that crew.

Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

It depends on the area. In my area, I work with the same four guys every Friday night. We work the same position every week. On this crew I am the WH and the crew chief.

I'll give you an example of what I mean by poor choices. I expect the wings to handle the sidelines and to enforce decorum strictly and consistently. One of the wings hasn't done a great job of this and he's been on the wing on my crew for 2 years now. In effect, it gives the impression that the visiting team is being homered cause the L has no problem giving sideline warnings and enforcing the rules and this is always the visiting team. If the wing doesn't do better this year in this area, I'll get a new wing for the following season and tell him his services are no longer needed on my crew. And I plan on laying this out at the preseason crew meeting we'll have in July or so.

There are some absolutes for me. Clean uniform. Showing up on time. Not getting out of games excessively or with too little notice (as I have to find a sub). The rest? It's a feeling thing. Notice I haven't said anything about calls being made. If I'm doing my job, it's rare that I see the activity that someone else has flagged. We get film, but that doesn't always help.

Again, it's different in many areas. When I lived in TN, we worked with different people every week and we pretty much worked a position and were assigned games through the association.

[Brandon Kincer]

We have this guy that works with me in rec and he comes to his game looking like a thug. Hat crooked, shirt untucked, etc. You'd have a field day with this guy lol. That is also a pet peeve of mine. If your going to play the role you need to look the role.

[Forksref]

I will say to the coach, "Number 42 has disqualified himself." That puts the onus on the player and coach. Usually, the coach will direct his questions/frustrations toward the player, not the officials.

[Brandon Kincer]

A poll has been added to this thread please vote accordingly

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

We have this guy that works with me in rec and he comes to his game looking like a thug. Hat crooked, shirt untucked, etc. You'd have a field day with this guy lol. That is also a pet peeve of mine. If your going to play the role you need to look the role.

Everyone makes a choice, Brandon, do they start out on the right foot, or the wrong one. There are always two ways to learn, watch someone doing it right, and emulate him or watch someone doing it wrong, and vow to do the opposite.

When you're new at something, criticizing others who may be doing something you perceive as wrong, even though you may be 100% accurate, is usually not a great way to endear yourself with your peers.

On a good day, even the very best of us should appreciate and accept constructive criticism, or be willing to explain what you might perceive as something questionable. Reality dictates that the newer you are, the more subtle and diplomatic your question or criticism might need to be to be considered constructive.

It's often better to simply decide, rather than speculate or criticize, to just consider the action (behavior, appearance, demeanor) and decide for myself to either emulate it or to avoid ever repeating it.

As you gain experience, hopefully you'll come to understand we get better at a lot of things on a week to week basis, but other things, or habits, take longer to work through and that very often we respond to a certain play, somewhat differently than usual, because of the unique circumstances of that particular play, which might be a good adjustment, or sometimes not.

The person you'll get the most benefit out of critiquing, even to the nit-picking level, is yourself, because you'll recognize a lot more mistakes you make than anybody else will and you should understand better what you may have done wrong.

[With_Two_Flakes]

A tip I was given in 1985 when I started officiating was to keep a logbook of every game I worked. For my first few years, I would write down what I did good and what I messed up (as well as basic stuff like the date, the teams, the score, the rest of the crew and who worked where). It helped me identify trends in my officiating so I knew what my weak areas were and I could work on them to try and improve.

Even today, I still keep a log of the date, teams, score, the rest of the crew and who worked where. But that's more to do with the memory not being what it was, as it drives me nuts trying to recall whether I'd worked with some guy before or not.

My local officials association have adopted that idea for our formal rookie training program. A rookie has a logbook and must get it filled in for his first 10 games by the crew - they say what he did good, what he needs to work on and the White Hat signs it off. We strongly encourage our newer guys to continue by keeping their own logbook themselves after those first 10 games.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

ajmc,
Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

Brandon, don't overcomplicate the issues.

First, forget the rec game. As you said, neither official was certified. There's a different standard when working with certified HS officials.

Second, the referee is in charge of the crew and the game. He wears a white hat so as to distinguish him from the other officials. Not sure what else you're looking for.

Third, in most areas, the referee has a say on who works on his crew. Therefore, yes, he can usually have a crew member replaced if he wants too.

Finally, referees usually have years of experience. They are going to make better decisions than you will. As this point in your career, you learning what to call. But even more importantly, you have not even begun to learn what NOT to call. This is where you will need to listen to the more experienced officials.

The veterans will listen to you but it's much more important that you are the one who listens.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Brandon, you're overcomplicating the issues.

First, forget the rec game. As you said, neither official was certified. There's a different standard when working with cretified HS officials.

Second, the referee is in charge of the crew and the game. He wears a white hat so as to distinguish him from the other officials.

Third, in most areas, the referee has a say on who works on his crew. Therefor, yes, he can usually have a crew member replaced if he wants too.

Finally, referees usually have years of experience. They are going to make better decisions thant you will. As this point in your career, you learning what to call. But even more importantly, you have not even begun to learn what NOT to call. This is where you will need to listen to the more experienced officials.

The veterans will listen to you but it's much more important that you are the one who listens.

I agree. I really do want to succeed in being a football official. I talk to certified officials on the phone at games and even work with them indivdually to be the very best I can be. One official even has it set up to where i get in his HS games free and stand near the field so that I can watch and learn. Im doing the very best I can and asking the questions that I feel I need to ask.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Heh, heh - and that's why God gave us one mouth and two ears, so we listen twice as much as we speak.

If you are already in contact with some of your local registered officials, then that is a good start. Pick their brains all you can, ask them why things were done as they were on games of theirs that you watch. They won't mind. Attend all the meetings of your local officials group. Show them that you are keen to learn. Hopefully one or two of them will become your mentor and take some time to help you along.

One final point. Officials tend to go through 3 stages.

Stage 1: the game is a blur. Apart from the obvious things (False Starts, etc), they don't see any fouls either live ball stuff or dead ball stuff after the play. They either move too much when they should stand and let the play happen, or they are static when they should be moving.

Stage 2: they recognise live action fouls. They flag everything because they see everything. The live action game has slowed down for them and now they see the fouls they've read about in the Rules and BANG! out comes the flag every time. They still miss some dead ball stuff though, they tend to be too keen on getting the ball in to the Umpire instead of watching players.

Stage 3: they've learn to relax even more. They think about whether the foul they saw affected the play, they won't flag stuff that doesn't (eg a hold away from the point of attack), but they may have a quiet word with the kid so he knows it was seen. Anything player safety related, they'll flag wherever it happens on the field and they catch all the dead ball stuff because they know to watch the players for that extra couple of seconds.

A good official recognises what stage he is at and works hard to get to the next stage. It also takes patience, it won't happen overnight.

[Brandon Kincer]

Honestly guys everyone who replied to this topic I really appreciate it. Like I said this is something I want to grow in and you guys are giving me extremely good advice. Thanks again.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal".

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.