Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Im not as expeirenced as most but I do agree with what Jim D said. If an official says he saw what he saw, throws the flag, and makes the call then he has done his job. I think having someone come behind you and overrule a call that you made (whether it be an ejection or a simple 5 yard penalty) makes the crew look some what like they do not know what they are doing.

Well you have to be careful about this subject. If I throw a flag then I have no problem with another offcial coming to me and asking what I saw. A key point is that it is done out of earshot of players/coaches. I work NCAA so passes have to be catchable for DPI. I flag a DPI and my fellow official comes to me and asks "Did you see the ball?" That makes me think about whether the pass was catchable. I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

[JRutledge]

All the Referee does is run the administrative parts of the game. I cannot think of anything they run other than this part. When I was the Referee once that game starts, I had to be good at my part of the field or my responsibilities; I never took my job as the leader or being in charge. I took my job as apart of the crew and I was not the crew chief off the field either.

Peace

[jaybird]

"Last year I was the line judge for a junior rec league football game. After the snap the runner was tackled about 10-15 yards beyond the LOS. I threw a flag and instantly another official came up to the white hat before I got to him to discuss what i was calling and was saying "That was a legal hit, There was no block in the back" The white hat waived it off but little did he know I was not calling a block in the back. I was calling illegal helmet contact due to the player lowering his head and making contact with the runner. (I guess its also known as spearing)"


What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

[parepat]

Two things:

1. If I'm the referee, I always give another official time to back out of an ejection. I will go over the call and ask him. "Do you still want to eject him?" The decision is always his. About half the time an official will change his mind (obviously there are situations that don't have much wiggle room-ie fighting). Sometimes in the heat of the moment we pull the trigger a little quickly and it is good to take a second to reflect.

2. I think the role of the referee is being mischaracterized. On any crew I have worked with, the referee is collectively "in charge". Maybe not officially, but as a practical matter, someone should have the last word. Thus, when a dispute arises, it is almost always the referee who ultimately will decide. That has been my experience.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by parepat

Two things:

1. If I'm the referee, I always give another official time to back out of an ejection. I will go over the call and ask him. "Do you still want to eject him?" The decision is always his. About half the time an official will change his mind (obviously there are situations that don't have much wiggle room-ie fighting). Sometimes in the heat of the moment we pull the trigger a little quickly and it is good to take a second to reflect.

2. I think the role of the referee is being mischaracterized. On any crew I have worked with, the referee is collectively "in charge". Maybe not officially, but as a practical matter, someone should have the last word. Thus, when a dispute arises, it is almost always the referee who ultimately will decide. That has been my experience.

This is what I ultimatly feel the White Hat's job is. He questions your call so that you may speak to other officials about what they saw and helps gather info you may not know. If it is determined you are wrong he is to tell you why it is wrong so that you don't make the same mistake again. However, He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

Brandon, I can't tell if you're trying to split a hair beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules carefully;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.(Not the specificity of specifically identifying the "Referee" as the final decision maker)

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the rereree is within his right to tactfully and discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority of instances, information from the calling official, about his observations, will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to educate the calling official of the error of his decision, which should then persuade the calling official to alter his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely seek input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility for making it, belong to the referee.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

He shouldalways leave it up to the calling official as to wether the call is upheld or waived off. Wtih that being said, He is also the dispute breaker. They guy who has the final say so should a disagreement arise.

Brandon, I can't tell if youre trying to split a hait beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the fereree is within his right to tactfully, discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority od instances, information from the calling official about his observations will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to persuade the calling official of the error of his decision, which should motivate the calling official to change his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely secure input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility, are the referee's to make.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Brandon, I can't tell if youre trying to split a hait beyond it's splitting capacity, but if you're still having trouble with the words, read the following rules;

NF: 1.1.4 "The game is administered by game officials whose title and duties are are stated in the official's manual".

NF: 1.1.6 "The referee has authority to rule promptly, and in the spirit of good sportsmanship, on any situation not covered in the rules. The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game.

If a referee's observation and conclusions about a situation are different than another official calling a particular situation, the fereree is within his right to tactfully, discreetly seek details supporting the call. In the vast majority od instances, information from the calling official about his observations will provide the detail necessary to support his reaction.

In those rare instances when that may not be the case, or when a rule is misunderstood and the referee believes has been misapllied, the referee should be able to persuade the calling official of the error of his decision, which should motivate the calling official to change his ruling.

In the unusual circumstance where disagreement persists, the referee would likely secure input from the other game officials to try and back up either position, but the final decision, and responsibility, are the referee's to make.

It should be highly unusual, however, to reach the point of requiring a non consensus decision.

Agreed.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Agreed.

One thing that many younger officials lack is the ability to not take things personally.

When our crew is working a game, ultimately I am the one called over to the sideline if a coach asks for a conference. Ultimately I get the phone call from the commissioner or the state if there's something that requires clarification. If there's a problem, I write the report.

During the game, I have my job to do. Mainly, it involves protecting the quarterback and administering and reporting penalties and maintaining a good pace of play. But in the end, if I have to step in and "play boss" I will and I expect the crew to understand that it's for the good of the game and the good of the crew, not simply to stroke my ego.

It's different in different areas of the country, BTW. In some areas people are just assigned to games and to the positions they work and that's it. But even in those places, a newer official is not going to make a good name for himself by taking on an experienced guy, especially if that experienced guy is well-respected within the organization. You still don't know what you don't know (trust me on this) and your first few years are best spent being cooperative and with both ears open.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

I'm not sure I understand this example you gave - "little did he know?" You went up to the white hat to report what you had right?
I have a strict rule on my crew. You throw a flag, you talk to the White Hat. The only exception is that if there are two flags, the guys are allowed to talk to each other first to make sure that have the same foul, then one of them comes to me to report it. So on my crew your situation could not have happened. If you have a flag, you come talk to me and tell me what you have got.

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I'm more concerned about getting the call right than whether I look good. We are a crew out there - not just 4, 5, 6 or 7 individuals.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

[Brandon Kincer]

White hats and Official coordinators are encouraged to reply since there are mixed feelings on this

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.



My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

In saying "Little did he know" I ment he didn't even ask what my call was due to the fact he had another official come up and say he saw a legal hit. Correct me if im wrong but I do not feel that it was his place to say that my call was inaccurate. I would have preferred he come up to me and simply ask me what I saw. Besides, The play was on my side of the field and he was all the way accross the field. In the officials manual it says that since the play was on my side of the field he should have been looking for blocks in the back by players closest to him. Again correct me if im wrong.

I agree with you it wasn't that other guys place to say your call was inaccurate. He should have come to you first (like in my examples) and talked to you.
I rarely work NFHS mechanics, but you are indeed correct that on such a play he had cleanup responsibilities and should have 90% of his focus on players behind the Referee and Umpire and 10% on mirroring a progress spot once the play is dead.

If I have a flag, then I'll toot my whistle to let the White Hat know I've got a flag and I'll go to him to talk about it. If I also have the progress spot, then he comes to me. If he does not (like in your example) then I'll drop a beanbag on the progress spot and go get in his face and tell him what I've got. A flag buys you into a conversation with the White Hat.

My main concern is getting the call right as well which is why I completely agree with discussing the call with other officials on the field but I also agree that it should ultimately be up to the calling official as to whether the call stands or not. After all he is the one that saw the play and obviously saw something wrong with it. No doubt, communication is key.

Futhur more I also agree with reporting the foul to the White Hat. He's the one that has to give the signal and deal the with the coaches. However, I do not feel he has the authority to waive off a call that you feel solid on because he didn't see it to. The thing to remember is there are 3,4,5,6 other individuals out there to insure that nothing is missed. For example, The referee might not see something that the LJ can and did see.

I agree that at the end of the day it is down to the calling official, but he should first listen to input from a colleague. That colleague won't give such input lightly - in my 24 years of officiating, I bet I've had an average of one, maybe two such instances per year.

The point I was trying to make is that, in my experience, not enough emphasis is put on crew teamwork and communication when officials are initially trained and they can therefore tend to act like a group of individuals. For much of the time they will do fine, but there will likely be one or two calls a game when they need to act as a crew. It doesn't have to be penalty related either. It may be an poorly thrown pass that a receiver has to dive back to catch. Did he get his fingers under the ball? The kids body can easily block out your view of it. An official who thinks "individual" will feel compelled to make an instant call and a signal and will guess. An official who thinks "crew" will take the time to make eye contact with the opposite wing or the Umpire and get help. It takes a half second in real time but feels like a month inside your head.

[Brandon Kincer]

First off I want to thank everyone who has replied to this thread. I think its obviously a heated topic. With that being said........

What I'm curious to know is what was their reaction when you jogged over and reported, "I've got spearing for illegal helmet contact by #__ at my flag, enforced 15 yards from the end of the run, here is the signal, 1st down for team A, clock on the ready."

I would really liked to have seen their faces when you reported that. You did report that didn't you?

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal". As for the other official he knew that he was instantly in the wrong. Im not one to down someone but he never has been a gentleman I liked working with. I didn't mention this before but neither of these officials were certified. The white hat was certified in VHSL basketball. Not football.

Instead of standing around feeling sorry for yourself you should have reported the flag to the R. If someone has a comment or issue about your flag they should talk to you first, and this isn't a practice that should be frowned upon.

Example - You may be watching the ball carrier as he stumbles on the grass and falls to the ground. An instant later a defender hits him while he's still down. You throw a flag for a late hit. What you didn't see was a teammate of the runner block the defender into the downed runner. An official with a wider view of the action should be expected to bring this information to the conversation.

Concerning the R overruling other officials' calls - The R can't and shouldn't be seeing everything. Each official has specific areas of responsibility on the field. As an R you have to trust the judgment of the others on the crew.

I didn't just "stand around and feel sorry for myself". However I was questioning if what the white hat did was ethical. As I said, I will be recieving my first patch this year as a certified high school league official and im bringing things that I expierenced in rec to you guys so you can help answer some questions I have.

[ajmc]

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.