Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[Brandon Kincer]

Some encouraging advice. I will take that to heart. Thank you both.

I may be excited over a little bit of nothing but I am also a proud NASO member although its taking them forever to get my stuff to me such as my membership card and my athletic VIP card.

[With_Two_Flakes]

.....although its taking them forever to get my stuff to me such as my membership card and my athletic VIP card.

Heh, heh. Imagine what it is like to be in Europe then. Actually in the last few years they have improved, but Ref Mag used to take 2-3 months to get here. Actually wasn't too much of an issue since our season and our Rules changes take place 6 months after the US.

Congrats on getting your patch. Also congrats on joining NASO. I was a member (one of their few European members) for many years. I still subscribe to REFEREE mag, but no longer bother with the NASO membership - I only really had it to cover me insurance wise on trips to the US when I worked occasional high school and small college games.
Some folks on these boards are not so crazy about Ref Mag, but I feel you will learn a lot from reading it - not just the football related stuff but the general officiating philosophy. I read it cover to cover even though (as a Brit) I'm clueless about half of what I read in the baseball and basketball sections. I guess you guys would be if they had a cricket section! Just because someone is writing about another sport, doesn't mean I can't pick up philosophy tips from them.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by VALJ

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

While I don't mind being questioned, I would be concerned with a WH who would want to waive off a block in the back because it didn't affect the play. BIB, clips, chop blocks, facemasks, are all saftey related fouls and should be enforced all the time. Holding is different because it's not a saftey issue, but BIB cetainly is, which is why it's illegal. That WH needs to go back to school.

[VALJ]

Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with that, Jim. A foul involving player safety is something that I'm always going to call, and I would certainly (now) expect a WH to have no hesitation with that no matter where it is on the field - and stand up to him if he tried to talk me into waving it off. My second year, though, I was still learning my way through things, and was still trying to get my feet under me, and I wasn't going to question a "vet" like him.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

While I don't mind being questioned, I would be concerned with a WH who would want to waive off a block in the back because it didn't affect the play. BIB, clips, chop blocks, facemasks, are all saftey related fouls and should be enforced all the time. Holding is different because it's not a saftey issue, but BIB cetainly is, which is why it's illegal. That WH needs to go back to school.

Frankly, I don't see a garden variety BIB this way at all. It' had better be at the point of attack or warrant a PF before it's called on my crew.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Frankly, I don't see a garden variety BIB this way at all. It' had better be at the point of attack or warrant a PF before it's called on my crew.

Rich, I think I know what you mean in that you wouldn't call a bump in the back away from the play because it 1) was not dangerous and 2) it did not affect the play. However, for the newer officials it's important to emphasis that the reason a BIB is illegal is because it's a saftey issue. A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury. A good official will not use the advantage/disadvantage philosphies on BIB, clips and other calls where the saftey of a player is involved.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

Rich, I think I know what you mean in that you wouldn't call a bump in the back away from the play because it 1) was not dangerous and 2) it did not affect the play. However, for the newer officials it's important to emphasis that the reason a BIB is illegal is because it's a saftey issue. A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury. A good official will not use the advantage/disadvantage philosphies on BIB, clips and other calls where the saftey of a player is involved.

You're not disagreeing. Rich said that in order to be called properly, BIB must be:

a. at the point of attack OR
b. a PF

For (a) we look at advantage/disadvantage. For (b) we call the foul because of safety, even if the block is well away from the play. Why give the appearance that you're correcting Rich, when he got it exactly right?

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're not disagreeing. Rich said that in order to be called properly, BIB must be:

a. at the point of attack OR
b. a PF

For (a) we look at advantage/disadvantage. For (b) we call the foul because of safety, even if the block is well away from the play. Why give the appearance that you're correcting Rich, when he got it exactly right?

I made my comments because Rich was not very precise on what he meant by a "garden variety BIB".

While I'm sure Rich and other experienced officials know what to call, there are a lot of newer officials who read these posts and we need to be careful that we present things properly. BIB is always a foul by rule - if it's minor contact away from the play, we may not flag it since it would be neither a dangerous play nor would it give a team an advantage. If it's a solid hit (not necessarily a PF in that it's was an excessive hit), it should still be called regardless of the position on the field.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

While I'm sure Rich and other experienced officials know what to call, there are a lot of newer officials who read these posts and we need to be careful that we present things properly. BIB is always a foul by rule - if it's minor contact away from the play, we may not flag it since it would be neither a dangerous play nor would it give a team an advantage. If it's a solid hit (not necessarily a PF in that it's was an excessive hit), it should still be called regardless of the position on the field.

And I observe the reverse phenomenon among newer officials: unfamiliar with traditions of enforcement, they flag a little push in the back because they learned that it's a rule-book foul. And those little pushes are much more common than the ones that raise safety concerns -- everybody knows to flag those.

[KWH]

Your question; "Should a WH be authorized to overrule the calls of the other officials?"

The answer to the poll question, as written, is and can only be YES!

Why? Because of the game situation where an official throws a flag in error?
Consider this situation:
A young fireball Line Judge throws a flag in a NFHS game for an ineligible reciever downfield during a punt!

This situation kinda trumps all your other "what if's!"

Which is why I voted "Yes"!

Nuff said

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury.

I'm not so sure about this always being true. Often times, a side block is not going to be seen and can be quite brutal, yet legal hits.

[Mike L]

moved to a new subject

[Texas Aggie]

I'm wondering if there are areas where the white hat (i.e Referee; just to be clear) and the Crew chief are or could be two different individuals. Where I work, they are the same. R's have some additional responsibilities (without additional pay, but that's another debate) and do take control. However, if one of my crew members brings me a penalty, I'm going to enforce it unless its just flat out wrong. Then I will convince him to change it -- which I have done. Heck, I've even talked myself into picking up my own flag before! No, we don't get into a habit of that, but if its necessary we'll do it.

I tell my crew (and adhere to it myself): don't be married to your calls. If my BJ comes in with a DPI and my LJ comes in and says it was probably uncatchable, I'll give them 5-10 seconds to discuss it and then we'll come to a decision but I expect both of them to decide on what's the best call for that situation, not what upholds their ego. Otherwise, I expect my guys to make the tough calls and when they bring them to me, I'll enforce them. If one guy comes to me and says, "18 threw a punch, I think he's ejected," 18 is gone. If one comes to me and says "18 had a personal foul but I'm not sure if it was flagrant," I'll try to get together to see if 1) they saw what 18 did on that play and 2) if they had warned 18 before. In the end, whoever made the call will make the decision unless he gives it up to me or the crew.

This is one reason why you need a good pregame if working with guys you don't consistently work with. That's when I give my "married to your calls" speech -- which mainly applies to things like uncatchable pass on DPI or pass thrown behind the line on ineligibles downfield, and like plays.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by KWH

Your question; "Should a WH be authorized to overrule the calls of the other officials?"

The answer to the poll question, as written, is and can only be YES!

Why? Because of the game situation where an official throws a flag in error?
Consider this situation:
A young fireball Line Judge throws a flag in a NFHS game for an ineligible reciever downfield during a punt!

This situation kinda trumps all your other "what if's!"

Which is why I voted "Yes"!

Nuff said

KWH,
I respectfully disagree with you. A simple conference between the officials INCLUDING the WH would correct this error. I do not believe that in any circumstance should the WH simply over rule a call one of his fellow officials makes. If an official comes to the WH and says I have a illegal helmet contact foul and that particular official says that there was sufficent risk of the offended player being hurt, Just because the WH didn't see it himself doesn't mean that the player should be able to continue to participate. Again I say this with complete respect towards you but if a WH could call the game by himself then there wouldn't be any need for the other officials.