Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

Rich, I think I know what you mean in that you wouldn't call a bump in the back away from the play because it 1) was not dangerous and 2) it did not affect the play. However, for the newer officials it's important to emphasis that the reason a BIB is illegal is because it's a saftey issue. A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury. A good official will not use the advantage/disadvantage philosphies on BIB, clips and other calls where the saftey of a player is involved.

You're not disagreeing. Rich said that in order to be called properly, BIB must be:

a. at the point of attack OR
b. a PF

For (a) we look at advantage/disadvantage. For (b) we call the foul because of safety, even if the block is well away from the play. Why give the appearance that you're correcting Rich, when he got it exactly right?

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're not disagreeing. Rich said that in order to be called properly, BIB must be:

a. at the point of attack OR
b. a PF

For (a) we look at advantage/disadvantage. For (b) we call the foul because of safety, even if the block is well away from the play. Why give the appearance that you're correcting Rich, when he got it exactly right?

I made my comments because Rich was not very precise on what he meant by a "garden variety BIB".

While I'm sure Rich and other experienced officials know what to call, there are a lot of newer officials who read these posts and we need to be careful that we present things properly. BIB is always a foul by rule - if it's minor contact away from the play, we may not flag it since it would be neither a dangerous play nor would it give a team an advantage. If it's a solid hit (not necessarily a PF in that it's was an excessive hit), it should still be called regardless of the position on the field.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

While I'm sure Rich and other experienced officials know what to call, there are a lot of newer officials who read these posts and we need to be careful that we present things properly. BIB is always a foul by rule - if it's minor contact away from the play, we may not flag it since it would be neither a dangerous play nor would it give a team an advantage. If it's a solid hit (not necessarily a PF in that it's was an excessive hit), it should still be called regardless of the position on the field.

And I observe the reverse phenomenon among newer officials: unfamiliar with traditions of enforcement, they flag a little push in the back because they learned that it's a rule-book foul. And those little pushes are much more common than the ones that raise safety concerns -- everybody knows to flag those.

[KWH]

Your question; "Should a WH be authorized to overrule the calls of the other officials?"

The answer to the poll question, as written, is and can only be YES!

Why? Because of the game situation where an official throws a flag in error?
Consider this situation:
A young fireball Line Judge throws a flag in a NFHS game for an ineligible reciever downfield during a punt!

This situation kinda trumps all your other "what if's!"

Which is why I voted "Yes"!

Nuff said

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by KWH

Your question; "Should a WH be authorized to overrule the calls of the other officials?"

The answer to the poll question, as written, is and can only be YES!

Why? Because of the game situation where an official throws a flag in error?
Consider this situation:
A young fireball Line Judge throws a flag in a NFHS game for an ineligible reciever downfield during a punt!

This situation kinda trumps all your other "what if's!"

Which is why I voted "Yes"!

Nuff said

KWH,
I respectfully disagree with you. A simple conference between the officials INCLUDING the WH would correct this error. I do not believe that in any circumstance should the WH simply over rule a call one of his fellow officials makes. If an official comes to the WH and says I have a illegal helmet contact foul and that particular official says that there was sufficent risk of the offended player being hurt, Just because the WH didn't see it himself doesn't mean that the player should be able to continue to participate. Again I say this with complete respect towards you but if a WH could call the game by himself then there wouldn't be any need for the other officials.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

KWH,
I respectfully disagree with you. A simple conference between the officials INCLUDING the WH would correct this error. I do not believe that in any circumstance should the WH simply over rule a call one of his fellow officials makes. If an official comes to the WH and says I have a illegal helmet contact foul and that particular official says that there was sufficent risk of the offended player being hurt, Just because the WH didn't see it himself doesn't mean that the player should be able to continue to participate. Again I say this with complete respect towards you but if a WH could call the game by himself then there wouldn't be any need for the other officials.

Welcome to the real world. Hypothetically speaking, everyone will agree with you by saying that a Referee should not overrule another official's call.

In the real world no referee will knowingly agree to enforce a penalty that he knows is incorrect.

Using the example cited above - Any R who enforces an ineligible down field penalty on a punt will not be working as an R for much longer.

[KWH]

I agree with Walt!

But wait, wasn't Walt agreeing with me?

Brandon, I am not talking about a judgment call, I am talking about a rule error made by a crew mate. I hope you are not suggesting we should not have picked up the flag when I had a real-life rookie line judge had a flag down for an ineligible reciever downfield on a punt. When he reported to me that he had an ineligible downfield on a punt, we had a breif discussion on the field and the flag was waved off. It wasn't changed in an attempt to bury an blatant ruling error, it was picked up because it was a ruling error from the Line Judge plain and simple. I believe my actions fits your description of a white hat overruling another official.

Brandon, I have been officiating for 31 years and that play and the one where the reciever caught the ball, landed on his back, got up, and ran into the endzone and the covering official signalled touchdown (because he wasn't down by contact) are the only two plays that come to mind. By the way, I "Overruled" the second play also, and you would not have wanted to be in that locker room.

It would be a rare occurance to even discuss a judgment call on the field. (We sure do behind closed doors though)

Again Brandon, you wrote a Black and White question and I am giving you an two examples of why your question could be answered with a "Yes"

And walt hit the nail on the head. While hypothetically, we all would like to answer your question with a Yes, its not 100% yes question...