Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Brandon, forgive me if I'm reading more into your delivery than you intend, but you seem to be more interested in condemnation of two other officials, rather than answering your question. From your original posting on, it seems you are well aware of the correct answer and simply want to vent.

As is true with everything, there are some Referees who are better at their job than others, some officials who exceed their authority and a lot of us who simply make mistakes. The more you pick at this scab, the more it seems there might be another side to this story relating to how you behaved, which hasn't been discussed.

It's not the role of any official to overrule or change any other official's call, however it's the responsibility of every official to try and help avoid a teammate from making a correctable mistake.

Not absolutely always, but usually, the Referee is an experienced official and is responsible for the overall management of the game. He's not your adversary, or your boss rather someone, likely with more experience, who is simply trying to avoid unnecessary problems, although Referees can make mistakes too.

If he, with or without agreement from another official, simply blew off your call, that was handled poorly and should not have happened. As many have pointed out, questioning another officials call can be either absolutely correct or horribly wrong, depending on how, where and when it's done.

There are things you control, and things you don't. Steps you can take include; working on your reporting fouls to the Referee, insuring you are crystal clear about what your foul call is, when it happened and who was involved. That report should be made directly, and as privately as possible, to the Referee. If he has a question, don't be offended, just answer it. If another official disagrees with your assessment of a particular action, resolve the issue with that official BEFORE involving the Referee, again directly and as privately as possible. (Keep in mind, someone who actually saw something trumps someone who thought they saw something else).

If the decision is that you were wrong, it's not an attack, not a big deal unless someone died. It's a mistake, we all make them EVERY game and we should try and learn from it and avoid repeating it. We simply correct what went wrong, even better if the correction is made before something was done wrong, and "play on".

As suggested above, we are the 3rd team on the field, and the only thing you can be assured of is our entire team will absolutely be the first target for blame, should ANYTHING go wrong, or not exactly how others might expect things to go. Over time we all have to learn when to accept criticism, how and when to ignore it and how to put a stop to it, when necessary. The only people you can really count on for support, on that field or in that stadium, are the other guys wearing stripes, so we have to work together.

ajmc,
Thanks for repling to my post. I see your point in getting off topic a bit on this thread however like I said, I am new at this and I have been offered a job with the VHSL (My High School Level State Association). I have one year under my belt and I do appreciate the advice you are giving me because I do feel this will benefit me in the long run. Please don't take me wrong though. I am not trying to "pick at a scab". Im just trying to find out the best thing to do in a situation such as this. Again Thank you for your advice.

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.

Thanks for the advice. I have never had a REAL problem with this but should it arise I think this is exactly what ill do.

I did overturn an ejection a few seasons ago. We were in the middle of a scrum and my partner and I saw the same activity and he said we needed to eject a player. I disagreed. Again, a case of two officials that disagree on the same play. And on that one, I won. When the WH has identical coverage with another official and disagrees with the other official, the WH is going to prevail -- right or wrong. It's happened once in many years this way.

Where I live, I recruit people to my crew and I also deal with establishing and maintaining our schedule with commissioners and athletic directors. Let me say this: I may have no specific authority during a game to stop someone from ejecting a player or coach or calling any penalty, but I also have no requirement to keep an official who makes poor choices in this area on my crew, either. I've fired 2 crew members in the past 5 years, so depending on how your area works, getting in a pissing match with the referee may not be a wise idea if you want to work on that crew.

Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

It depends on the area. In my area, I work with the same four guys every Friday night. We work the same position every week. On this crew I am the WH and the crew chief.

I'll give you an example of what I mean by poor choices. I expect the wings to handle the sidelines and to enforce decorum strictly and consistently. One of the wings hasn't done a great job of this and he's been on the wing on my crew for 2 years now. In effect, it gives the impression that the visiting team is being homered cause the L has no problem giving sideline warnings and enforcing the rules and this is always the visiting team. If the wing doesn't do better this year in this area, I'll get a new wing for the following season and tell him his services are no longer needed on my crew. And I plan on laying this out at the preseason crew meeting we'll have in July or so.

There are some absolutes for me. Clean uniform. Showing up on time. Not getting out of games excessively or with too little notice (as I have to find a sub). The rest? It's a feeling thing. Notice I haven't said anything about calls being made. If I'm doing my job, it's rare that I see the activity that someone else has flagged. We get film, but that doesn't always help.

Again, it's different in many areas. When I lived in TN, we worked with different people every week and we pretty much worked a position and were assigned games through the association.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

ajmc,
Very true. This why I posted this thread and am asking questions. I do not want to go about this the wrong way. In my state, the officials are scheduled and assigned to their positions for each individual game. Basically im just trying to figure out what exactly a white hat means. My real question is why don't all of the officials wear black hats? The WH is not necessarly the guy who can fire us. He is more or less just a more expeirenced guy assigned to that position for that game. When you say that you fire someone for making poor choices, do you mean enforcing a penalty that they feel solid on or just flat out not listening to what the other crew members have to say and basically calling the game themselves?

Brandon, don't overcomplicate the issues.

First, forget the rec game. As you said, neither official was certified. There's a different standard when working with certified HS officials.

Second, the referee is in charge of the crew and the game. He wears a white hat so as to distinguish him from the other officials. Not sure what else you're looking for.

Third, in most areas, the referee has a say on who works on his crew. Therefore, yes, he can usually have a crew member replaced if he wants too.

Finally, referees usually have years of experience. They are going to make better decisions than you will. As this point in your career, you learning what to call. But even more importantly, you have not even begun to learn what NOT to call. This is where you will need to listen to the more experienced officials.

The veterans will listen to you but it's much more important that you are the one who listens.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Yes. I did report that and the reaction by the referee was simply that there was a little over a minute left to go in the game and "It wasn't a big deal".

We've all had somewhat similar experiences along the line - a WH who decides not to enforce a late call or maybe runs the clock when he shouldn't just to get out of there early. There isn't much you can do when the ring master is off on his own agenda. You called the foul and properly reported it. If, like in this case, he decides not to enforce it, it's his decision/problem. You did your job, but he didn't do his. You can't get in a wrestling match over the ball and mark if off yourself, and you can't get into a shouting match in the middle of the field. I'd tell him I disagree, go back to my sideline and vow never to work with him again. If a coach asks for an explaination, direct him to the WH.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by With_Two_Flakes

Equally I have no problem asking a question. Last year I worked a game as White Hat. The runner ran toward the sideline, ahead of him a block was made by a pulling guard #67, looked like a good side block. The Line Judge threw in a flag. After the play, he reported that he had a Block in the back by #67. I asked "Are you sure? I saw that block too and it looked like it was Ok and in the side." The Line Judge (who has as many years of experience as me) said "You know what? You're right, it was in the side. Wave it off."

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by VALJ

My second or third year, I had a similar situation in a JV game, and it didn't faze me that the R asked a bit. I had a sweep coming to my side, and the pulling guard blasted the linebacker who was in position to make the play. Unfortunately for the offense, he got him in the back right between the numbers. That block opened the hole that the RB went through for a TD. After the play, I reported the BIB to the R. Knowing that I was still relatively new, he aked me "did the block you're calling affect the play?" I told him, "Matt, that block opened the hole, and is the why he was able to score." He signaled it, marked it off, and on we went. We talked about it at half time, and he told me that he wasn't questioning what I saw at all - he just wanted to be sure that what I was calling was "there", and not an off-ball foul that didn't affect the play. I've worked with him a few times since then, and he hasn't asked any more questions like that.

Especially as a newer official, I appreciated that he was looking to make me a better official. I'm hoping to transition to WH over the next few seasons, at least for JV games, and - for the first and second year guys - will probably try to use the flags as a "teaching moment" for the rookies as well.

While I don't mind being questioned, I would be concerned with a WH who would want to waive off a block in the back because it didn't affect the play. BIB, clips, chop blocks, facemasks, are all saftey related fouls and should be enforced all the time. Holding is different because it's not a saftey issue, but BIB cetainly is, which is why it's illegal. That WH needs to go back to school.

[VALJ]

Actually, I agree wholeheartedly with that, Jim. A foul involving player safety is something that I'm always going to call, and I would certainly (now) expect a WH to have no hesitation with that no matter where it is on the field - and stand up to him if he tried to talk me into waving it off. My second year, though, I was still learning my way through things, and was still trying to get my feet under me, and I wasn't going to question a "vet" like him.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

While I don't mind being questioned, I would be concerned with a WH who would want to waive off a block in the back because it didn't affect the play. BIB, clips, chop blocks, facemasks, are all saftey related fouls and should be enforced all the time. Holding is different because it's not a saftey issue, but BIB cetainly is, which is why it's illegal. That WH needs to go back to school.

Frankly, I don't see a garden variety BIB this way at all. It' had better be at the point of attack or warrant a PF before it's called on my crew.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Frankly, I don't see a garden variety BIB this way at all. It' had better be at the point of attack or warrant a PF before it's called on my crew.

Rich, I think I know what you mean in that you wouldn't call a bump in the back away from the play because it 1) was not dangerous and 2) it did not affect the play. However, for the newer officials it's important to emphasis that the reason a BIB is illegal is because it's a saftey issue. A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury. A good official will not use the advantage/disadvantage philosphies on BIB, clips and other calls where the saftey of a player is involved.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

Rich, I think I know what you mean in that you wouldn't call a bump in the back away from the play because it 1) was not dangerous and 2) it did not affect the play. However, for the newer officials it's important to emphasis that the reason a BIB is illegal is because it's a saftey issue. A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury. A good official will not use the advantage/disadvantage philosphies on BIB, clips and other calls where the saftey of a player is involved.

You're not disagreeing. Rich said that in order to be called properly, BIB must be:

a. at the point of attack OR
b. a PF

For (a) we look at advantage/disadvantage. For (b) we call the foul because of safety, even if the block is well away from the play. Why give the appearance that you're correcting Rich, when he got it exactly right?

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You're not disagreeing. Rich said that in order to be called properly, BIB must be:

a. at the point of attack OR
b. a PF

For (a) we look at advantage/disadvantage. For (b) we call the foul because of safety, even if the block is well away from the play. Why give the appearance that you're correcting Rich, when he got it exactly right?

I made my comments because Rich was not very precise on what he meant by a "garden variety BIB".

While I'm sure Rich and other experienced officials know what to call, there are a lot of newer officials who read these posts and we need to be careful that we present things properly. BIB is always a foul by rule - if it's minor contact away from the play, we may not flag it since it would be neither a dangerous play nor would it give a team an advantage. If it's a solid hit (not necessarily a PF in that it's was an excessive hit), it should still be called regardless of the position on the field.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

A block from the front or side is allowed because a player can see it coming and brace for it, while a BIB is unexpected and more likely to lead to injury.

I'm not so sure about this always being true. Often times, a side block is not going to be seen and can be quite brutal, yet legal hits.

[Mike L]

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