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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 10:10am
Ch1town
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Casebook help

Need a little help please. Just youth league ball (Fed ruleset) but still, it’s playoffs.

I usually run my own field (3 person) in the regular season but less teams = less fields thus I’m assigned as a forth on an existing veteran 3 person crew (their experience: youth league only). So 3rd game of a 4 gm set…

1. A7 runs towards the endzone & gets facemasked by B as he breaks the tackle to score.
Presentation to captain was “decline & TD stands”. I provided info to the WH that they didn’t have to decline. 8-2-2 gives the options of enforcing on the try or subsequent kickoff. But he shut me down, can anyone provide a similar case play for me?


2. A7 is tackled by B37 after gaining a first down near Team Bs sideline. Team Bs coach says to B37 "keep hitting, they’re getting tired". A7 gets up, looks directly at the sideline & says "I’m not getting FREAKIN” tired.
I hit him with a USC (12 yr olds).
The WH decides to make it a DOG instead because the kid wouldn’t play in next weekends Super Bowl if they advanced… That’s neither here nor there, I can accept being overruled. BTW, when that decision was made Team B coach protested the game.
My point is, the crew wanted to set the chains & mark off 5 for 1st & 15. Once again, I provided info to the WH that it occurred before the chains were set and a RFP whistle so we should mark then set as in 5-3-1. He shut me down once again, told the coach (right in front of me) that he can change my USC to DOG if wanted to & said he’d set the chains 1st & 15. Can anyone provide a similar case play for me?

Thanks in advance
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 11:03am
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Wow, there are a couple of things worth discussing, but Case Book plays are not on the list. In the TD situation you are correct, the scoring team has the additional options of accepting the score and a choice of accepting the penalty on the try or the subsequent KO.

Clearly your Referee wasn't aware, or possibly forgot, that recent major rule revision. You could reference the Case Book, if you thought it would help, but quoting chapter and verse likely wouldn't help, at least at that moment. The only suggestion, for avoiding such a response in the future, is to consider how you approached the referee with the information. If you immediately pulled him aside and explained quietly that it was your understand that the rule has recently been revised to provide..........., you've done your job.

If a Referee decides to reject or ignore your information, that's entirely on him. You might renew the discussion at the half, or after the game where the added detail might be helpful, but if he still rejects it, you're only response may be to reconsider future assignments with this person.

On the "comment" issue, again your rule interpretation is correct, and the Referee has no authority or jurisdiction to reclassify any foul you call, unless you are applying a rule incorrectly. However, at times discretion ca be the better part of valor.

Assuming "freaking" is a substitute for the actual word chosen, the USC penalty is not (at least by NFHS rule) an automatic disqualification. That's a decision you, as the calling official, get to make. In consideration of the age of the player, a more supportive referee may have chosen to provide a more detailed explanation of the incident to the offending player's coach allowing hime the opportunity to deal withe player and also consider the consequences of his yelling at his players from across the field.

the 15 yard penalty is the proper assessment for the USC, and it should be marked off prior to setting the chains and declaring the ball RFP, producing a 1st and 10 situation from the succeeding spot.

To your original question, providing informative details and backup is only important if the person you're talking to has some intention to listen to what you are saying. The referee's behavior, in front of either coach, is indefensible which, again, might give you pause to accepting further assignments with him.
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Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 11:53am
Ch1town
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Thanks for the reply!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
The only suggestion, for avoiding such a response in the future, is to consider how you approached the referee with the information. If you immediately pulled him aside and explained quietly that it was your understand that the rule has recently been revised to provide..........., you've done your job.
I do a little lower-level HS ball so I know the proper procedure to communicate with the crew. I also know how I like info brought to me when I'm wearing the WH. I'm not about I'm right but what's right...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
On the "comment" issue, again your rule interpretation is correct, and the Referee has no authority or jurisdiction to reclassify any foul you call, unless you are applying a rule incorrectly.
Didn't know that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
Assuming "freaking" is a substitute for the actual word chosen, the USC penalty is not (at least by NFHS rule) an automatic disqualification. That's a decision you, as the calling official, get to make. In consideration of the age of the player, a more supportive referee may have chosen to provide a more detailed explanation of the incident to the offending player's coach allowing hime the opportunity to deal withe player and also consider the consequences of his yelling at his players from across the field.
Ooookaaayy, I should've mentioned the same player had been talked to on different occasions in the 1st half. He was hit with a USC prior to mine. So I believe I was as supportive as possible.
There was no "yelling across the field" you lost me there.

Thanks again, but I was really looking for similar casebook play.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 12:29pm
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IMHO, the white hat isn't qualified to work PeeWee. ajmc had it right. In play #1, the FM can be enforced on the try or KO. In play #2, it's an USC and if it was his second one he's gone by rule. If you deemed it flagrant per 2-16-2c, you could eject him then and there. Why your WH was worried about the kid not playing when he's had two USC's is stupid. A 12 year old dropping F-Bombs NEEDS to sit out next week. The only way you get more than 1st & 10 is if there's a dead ball foul after the ready and you were correct again. I'm sure it's tough to find officials willing to work the living hell known as PeeWee football but certainly you can find some guys who at least care to know the rules.
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Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 01:03pm
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Sorry CH1town, for whatever reason I misunderstood that the play, in example 2, happened "in front of the "A" bench, not as you stated, "near Team Bs sideline".
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Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 02:47pm
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I agree with everyone ---and only add a couple of small things.

#1-- The option rule applies to TDs scored by the offense...when the foul is committed by the defense. An interception for a TD and a facemask penalty for example would not qualify under the rule.

#2-- You will never have a situation where you will be first and 25 unless you have already set the chains.

#3-- As for the word "freaking" as in a two word variation of this...we had a situation a couple of weeks ago where we had hold by the offense...the guy who committed the hold telling the official what he could do, as the player was running 50 yards for a touch down. That was a particularly entertaining sequence. Penalize the hold....then go back half the distance to the goal for the USC and have to explain to the coach that all misconduct fouls are administered and thats why both "live ball" fouls were being walked off.
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Old Mon Nov 10, 2008, 03:04pm
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Sometimes, NF: 2.43.4 ("Team designation (A & B, K & R)are retained until the ball is next marked ready for play) causes some serious confusion.

Although these "designations" are retained, NF: 2.43.1 establishes "the offense is the team in possession of the ball. The opponent is the defense. Is effect, when the defense intercepts a pass, or recovers a fumble they become the offense although their designation remains "B".

NF:8.2.3 stipulates, "If during a TD scoring play in which there was a change of possession the opponent of the scoring team commit a foul other than non-player or unsportsmanlike after the change of possession, the scoring team... " (enjoys the same options to choose to have the penalty enforced on the try, or subsequent KO)
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 11, 2008, 10:58am
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At the risk of being lambasted here, I question the USC. If the kid really said "freaking", I doubt I would have anything. THat being said, the Ref seems to suffer from a dangerous duo of rules incompetency and insecurity.

One thing that may merit discussion, is coaches yelling about other teams players.

"55 is scared"

"10 is slow"

"25 is a wimp"

While I've not flagged it, it burns me up when an adult coach disparages an opposing player.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 11, 2008, 11:55am
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A quick funny story about the word freaking. I was consulting in Virgina and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. Well I said "freaking" during a training class and was pulled aside by the manager and was told that word in the "bible areas" where I was is just like saying the actual F word and I offended people. So I guess the word can be nothing somewhere and something in other areas. I think I think I would have held that one in the pocket due to the circumstances where the coach was the first one to say something and the kid was just sort of sticking up for himself and the team and it did not sound like a taunt or anything.

As for the youth games, I work a ton of them, and there are many different people who officiate them. I work Freshman and JV games because I cannot work on Friday nights for HS, but I could work varsity if I did not have the real job that pays the bills. I work Saturday and Sunday youth games with a wide range of officials, from HS State final guys in the playoffs to former coaches who think they are gods on the field but don't know anything, the the kid just looking for a part time job. What I find is that sometimes the State Finals guys don't really do anything during the game and are sort of out of it because it is not important to them, but they don't get questioned much from the coaches because they are known. The rest of the guys like me usually don't get much crap because we have the state patch on our shirts and the coaches think we know what we are doing. The other guys usually take a beating all day and really step into it allot.

It sounds like the WH in your game just did not want to deal with the ejection and everything that comes with it (usually paperwork and what not) and was sort of going through the motions. As for not knowing the rule on the facemask, 99% of the guys who are not certified by the state most likely won't know that rule. It was new last year, and they would really not know that.

Now on a side note I was working with a guy who called a block in the back when the player was blocked at the front side, because he was told at a clinic for the youth league where he learned the rules that if the shoulder pads moved at all, then it is a block in the back. I looked at him and could not say a thing. I convinced him that was not the right call, but he kept telling me that if the shoulder pads move it is a block in the back. Wow...and that was game one of 6 that day with him and another guy who actually liked to argue with the parents and coaches on the sideline! Long day.

At least for the playoffs they use the ratings that we get to pick those games, and usually you will work with a good crew.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 11, 2008, 08:26pm
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Here's your case book plays:

*8.2.2 SITUATION A: During (a) A9's run for a touchdown, or (b) K1's field
goal, B2 holds A1. RULING: In (a), A will likely keep the score and may choose to
enforce the foul on the try or enforce the foul on the subsequent kickoff. In (b), K
may keep the points and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot, or
have the penalty enforced from the previous spot and replay the down. (8-4-3)

5.1.2 SITUATION C: Third and 10 for A from B’s 40-yard line. A1 gains 10 yards
and is downed on B’s 30. A2 taunts B1 during the run. RULING: Since the liveball
action gave A a new series, the line to gain shall be established after A is
penalized for A2’s unsportsmanlike act. It will be first and 10 for A from B’s 45-
yard line.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 12, 2008, 12:36am
Ch1town
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I appreciate your efforts, thanks!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 12, 2008, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jontheref View Post
I agree with everyone ---and only add a couple of small things.

#1-- The option rule applies to TDs scored by the offense...when the foul is committed by the defense. An interception for a TD and a facemask penalty for example would not qualify under the rule.
Jon,

Reread Rule 8-3-2. It states "If during a touchdown-scoring play in which there is a change of possession, the opponent of the scoring team commit a foul other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike after the change of possession, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the foul enforced on the subsequent kickoff."

Therefore, in your example B intercepts a pass returns it for a TD and A fouls after the change of possession, they have the option to carry the enforcement over to the kickoff. Don't let yourself get confused over offense and defense.

Last edited by Patton; Wed Nov 12, 2008 at 11:44am.
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