Casebook help

Thanks for the reply!

Originally Posted by ajmc

The only suggestion, for avoiding such a response in the future, is to consider how you approached the referee with the information. If you immediately pulled him aside and explained quietly that it was your understand that the rule has recently been revised to provide..........., you've done your job.

I do a little lower-level HS ball so I know the proper procedure to communicate with the crew. I also know how I like info brought to me when I'm wearing the WH. I'm not about I'm right but what's right...

Originally Posted by ajmc

On the "comment" issue, again your rule interpretation is correct, and the Referee has no authority or jurisdiction to reclassify any foul you call, unless you are applying a rule incorrectly.

Didn't know that!

Originally Posted by ajmc

Assuming "freaking" is a substitute for the actual word chosen, the USC penalty is not (at least by NFHS rule) an automatic disqualification. That's a decision you, as the calling official, get to make. In consideration of the age of the player, a more supportive referee may have chosen to provide a more detailed explanation of the incident to the offending player's coach allowing hime the opportunity to deal withe player and also consider the consequences of his yelling at his players from across the field.

Ooookaaayy, I should've mentioned the same player had been talked to on different occasions in the 1st half. He was hit with a USC prior to mine. So I believe I was as supportive as possible.
There was no "yelling across the field" you lost me there.

Thanks again, but I was really looking for similar casebook play.

[kdf5]

IMHO, the white hat isn't qualified to work PeeWee. ajmc had it right. In play #1, the FM can be enforced on the try or KO. In play #2, it's an USC and if it was his second one he's gone by rule. If you deemed it flagrant per 2-16-2c, you could eject him then and there. Why your WH was worried about the kid not playing when he's had two USC's is stupid. A 12 year old dropping F-Bombs NEEDS to sit out next week. The only way you get more than 1st & 10 is if there's a dead ball foul after the ready and you were correct again. I'm sure it's tough to find officials willing to work the living hell known as PeeWee football but certainly you can find some guys who at least care to know the rules.

[ajmc]

Sorry CH1town, for whatever reason I misunderstood that the play, in example 2, happened "in front of the "A" bench, not as you stated, "near Team Bs sideline".

[jontheref]

I agree with everyone ---and only add a couple of small things.

#1-- The option rule applies to TDs scored by the offense...when the foul is committed by the defense. An interception for a TD and a facemask penalty for example would not qualify under the rule.

#2-- You will never have a situation where you will be first and 25 unless you have already set the chains.

#3-- As for the word "freaking" as in a two word variation of this...we had a situation a couple of weeks ago where we had hold by the offense...the guy who committed the hold telling the official what he could do, as the player was running 50 yards for a touch down. That was a particularly entertaining sequence. Penalize the hold....then go back half the distance to the goal for the USC and have to explain to the coach that all misconduct fouls are administered and thats why both "live ball" fouls were being walked off.

[ajmc]

Sometimes, NF: 2.43.4 ("Team designation (A & B, K & R)are retained until the ball is next marked ready for play) causes some serious confusion.

Although these "designations" are retained, NF: 2.43.1 establishes "the offense is the team in possession of the ball. The opponent is the defense. Is effect, when the defense intercepts a pass, or recovers a fumble they become the offense although their designation remains "B".

NF:8.2.3 stipulates, "If during a TD scoring play in which there was a change of possession the opponent of the scoring team commit a foul other than non-player or unsportsmanlike after the change of possession, the scoring team... " (enjoys the same options to choose to have the penalty enforced on the try, or subsequent KO)

[parepat]

At the risk of being lambasted here, I question the USC. If the kid really said "freaking", I doubt I would have anything. THat being said, the Ref seems to suffer from a dangerous duo of rules incompetency and insecurity.

One thing that may merit discussion, is coaches yelling about other teams players.

"55 is scared"

"10 is slow"

"25 is a wimp"

While I've not flagged it, it burns me up when an adult coach disparages an opposing player.

[bcl1127]

A quick funny story about the word freaking. I was consulting in Virgina and I was living in Massachusetts at the time. Well I said "freaking" during a training class and was pulled aside by the manager and was told that word in the "bible areas" where I was is just like saying the actual F word and I offended people. So I guess the word can be nothing somewhere and something in other areas. I think I think I would have held that one in the pocket due to the circumstances where the coach was the first one to say something and the kid was just sort of sticking up for himself and the team and it did not sound like a taunt or anything.

As for the youth games, I work a ton of them, and there are many different people who officiate them. I work Freshman and JV games because I cannot work on Friday nights for HS, but I could work varsity if I did not have the real job that pays the bills. I work Saturday and Sunday youth games with a wide range of officials, from HS State final guys in the playoffs to former coaches who think they are gods on the field but don't know anything, the the kid just looking for a part time job. What I find is that sometimes the State Finals guys don't really do anything during the game and are sort of out of it because it is not important to them, but they don't get questioned much from the coaches because they are known. The rest of the guys like me usually don't get much crap because we have the state patch on our shirts and the coaches think we know what we are doing. The other guys usually take a beating all day and really step into it allot.

It sounds like the WH in your game just did not want to deal with the ejection and everything that comes with it (usually paperwork and what not) and was sort of going through the motions. As for not knowing the rule on the facemask, 99% of the guys who are not certified by the state most likely won't know that rule. It was new last year, and they would really not know that.

Now on a side note I was working with a guy who called a block in the back when the player was blocked at the front side, because he was told at a clinic for the youth league where he learned the rules that if the shoulder pads moved at all, then it is a block in the back. I looked at him and could not say a thing. I convinced him that was not the right call, but he kept telling me that if the shoulder pads move it is a block in the back. Wow...and that was game one of 6 that day with him and another guy who actually liked to argue with the parents and coaches on the sideline! Long day.

At least for the playoffs they use the ratings that we get to pick those games, and usually you will work with a good crew.

[Patton]

Originally Posted by jontheref

I agree with everyone ---and only add a couple of small things.

#1-- The option rule applies to TDs scored by the offense...when the foul is committed by the defense. An interception for a TD and a facemask penalty for example would not qualify under the rule.

Jon,

Reread Rule 8-3-2. It states "If during a touchdown-scoring play in which there is a change of possession, the opponent of the scoring team commit a foul other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike after the change of possession, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the foul enforced on the subsequent kickoff."

Therefore, in your example B intercepts a pass returns it for a TD and A fouls after the change of possession, they have the option to carry the enforcement over to the kickoff. Don't let yourself get confused over offense and defense.