Two players in Motion

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Thanks you, I just want to know where everyone stands on this call and why! I see rule coverage for illegal motion and case play coverage for illegal shift so it is a bit confusing. Bring back Illegal procedure!

Illegal procedure never was an illegal shift or illegal motion. It had nothing to do with those two.

[ajmc]

A real simple solution, bigjohn, when there's a flag thrown on the field, just ask the wing man on your side line to explain what the call is, and accept what he tells you. Beating a horse to death just for the sake of beating him is cruel and unusual and may even be considered flagrant.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Read my original post, I said nothing about one player in motion= illegal motion, I said one player in motion illegally. Those are two different things.

Oh, all you're saying is that illegal motion is illegal motion. Hard to argue with that. Brief, too.

[bigjohn]

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

If the above is correct, I have called this incorrectly about a zillion times.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

I think that is erroneous. If you read the case book from this year, section 7.2.6, it appears that this is an illegal shift. Read play B and C.


7.2.6 SITUATION B:

Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped. RULING: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-39)

7.2.6 SITUATION C: After A has been set for more than one second, back A1 goes in motion. While A1 is in motion, back A2 takes one step forward and then resets. A1 is still in motion when the ball is snapped two seconds after A2 reset. RULING: Illegal shift. A2’s movement was a shift and the failure of the entire team to set for at least one second after the shift and before the snap is a foul at the snap. (2-39)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

I think that is erroneous. If you read the case book from this year, section 7.2.6, it appears that this is an illegal shift. Read play B and C.


7.2.6 SITUATION B:

Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped. RULING: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-39)

7.2.6 SITUATION C: After A has been set for more than one second, back A1 goes in motion. While A1 is in motion, back A2 takes one step forward and then resets. A1 is still in motion when the ball is snapped two seconds after A2 reset. RULING: Illegal shift. A2’s movement was a shift and the failure of the entire team to set for at least one second after the shift and before the snap is a foul at the snap. (2-39)

These are different than the first situation in the play quoted in the article. That is clearly illegal motion. Everything else quoted IS an illegal shift. An illegal shift has everything to do with not meeting the legal requirements of a shift, having mostly to do with not coming set for a second before another player moves or the ball is snapped.

[mbyron]

Rich is right: the quoted case plays all involve at least one player coming set while others are in motion. When multiple players are in motion and one comes set, that makes the motion a shift. If they do not all come set prior to the snap, the shift is illegal.

In the play bigjohn posted, all we have is 2 players moving at the snap. That's illegal motion, since neither came set prior to the snap.

[kdf5]

According to the rule, illegal motion is only two things: two men in motion at the snap and/or a player moving forward at the snap. A shift occurs when a player STOPS moving and if a player shifts (stops moving) then EVERYONE else in motion must also shift (stop moving) for at least one second before the snap or before another player goes legally in motion again.

[bigjohn]

Is this illegal motion?

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...egalmotion.wmv

[grantsrc]

Ok, so I think I see the difference between all the plays mentioned in this thread. So if two players go in motion at the exact same time and don't stop, illegal motion per 7-2-7.

If two players go in motion and one of them resets, then it's an illegal shift per 7-2-6.

As for the video (I can't see it they block the site here at school), if I remember correctly, that's the play where the QB goes under center when the motion man goes in motion. Based on where my understanding of things thus far (which is a little shaky to say the least ) I believe this is an illegal shift. This was a POE this year, correct?

[kdf5]

Right. The back goes in motion then the QB steps under center and starts his cadence. This is an illegal shift since you had two in motion at the same time but the QB shifted (stopped moving) when he placed his hands under the center. Had the ball been snapped before the QB had been set for one second you would have had an IM. Since the ball was snapped after the QB was set for a second and the back didn't stop moving, you have and IS.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Right. The back goes in motion then the QB steps under center and starts his cadence. This is an illegal shift since you had two in motion at the same time but the QB shifted (stopped moving) when he placed his hands under the center. Had the ball been snapped before the QB had been set for one second you would have had an IM. Since the ball was snapped after the QB was set for a second and the back didn't stop moving, you have and IS.

Exactly right.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Right. The back goes in motion then the QB steps under center and starts his cadence.

My copy of the video must be corrupted. I do not see the QB stepping.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

I think that is erroneous. If you read the case book from this year, section 7.2.6, it appears that this is an illegal shift. Read play B and C.


7.2.6 SITUATION B:

Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped. RULING: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-39)

7.2.6 SITUATION C: After A has been set for more than one second, back A1 goes in motion. While A1 is in motion, back A2 takes one step forward and then resets. A1 is still in motion when the ball is snapped two seconds after A2 reset. RULING: Illegal shift. A2’s movement was a shift and the failure of the entire team to set for at least one second after the shift and before the snap is a foul at the snap. (2-39)

REPLY: But grant...in both 7.2.6 case plays, the words are clear that one of the players STOPPED (i.e. shifted). The cited play (which I recognize) has two scenarios: (b) which matches the two 7.2.6 case plays in that one of the players STOPPED; and also (a) where both players continue in motion through the snap. (a) does not match the case plays you quoted...but (b) does.

I stand by my assertion that in the play that bigjohn cited, scenario (a) results in illegal motion, and (b) results in an illegal shift