Two players in Motion

[bigjohn]

at the snap.

Is it Illegal motion or is it illegal Shift.

I know they both result in the same thing but it is an arguable point.

[ajmc]

The real question should be, "Is it worth arguing about"? NF 7.2.6 explains what is necessary to legally shift, and 7.2.7 explains what is required for a player to be legally in motion. Illegal motion violations relate to the actions of a single player and relate to the timing and direction of the action taken by that player.

Illegal shift violations, normally relate to more than one player moving at the wrong time or in the wrong manner, although they do include the actions of a single player who may have either started his movement improperly or failed to complete it as intended.

Both are live ball, 5 yard penalties and the difference between the two is based on the conprehension of the rule differences of the covering official.

[bigjohn]

Is that why signal 20 is one arm moving for illegal motion and two arms for illegal shift?

Doesnt Rule 7-2-2 say:

ART. 7 . . . Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if
such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line. Except for the player “under
the snapper,” as outlined in Article 3, the player in motion shall be at least 5 yards
behind his line of scrimmage at the snap if he started from any position not clearly
behind the line and did not establish himself as a back by stopping for at least
one full second while no part of his body is breaking the vertical plane through
the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on the line of scrimmage.

illegal motion (Art. 7) – (S20)

[grantsrc]

Two players moving is illegal shift.

One player moving in motion illegally (going forward) is illegal motion.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Two players moving is illegal shift.

One player moving in motion illegally (going forward) is illegal motion.

Not correct. For example: two players move during a shift. One sets, the other does not. Ball is snapped. This is an illegal shift, and it doesn't matter whether the one player is moving "forward" at the snap.

[bigjohn]

ART. 6 . . . After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute
stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands,
feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.
illegal shift (Art. 6) – (S20);

I don't see anything in this rule about motion.

[bigjohn]

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.

Is (d) illegal motion or illegal shift if a teammate is in motion??

[bigjohn]

Rule 2 SECTION 39
says nothing about motion here either!

SHIFT
A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after
taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.

Is (d) illegal motion or illegal shift if a teammate is in motion??

7-2-7 Only one A player may be in motion at the snap
PENALTY: illegal motion (S20)

note: I deleted the non applicable parts to save space.

[bigjohn]

7.2.6 Situation B: Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped.
Ruling: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-39)

[Theisey]

If it makes you feel better, I would announce it as an illegal shift.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not correct. For example: two players move during a shift. One sets, the other does not. Ball is snapped. This is an illegal shift, and it doesn't matter whether the one player is moving "forward" at the snap.

Yes, that is an illegal shift. In my example, for the sake of brevity I didn't address all possible examples. Shame on me...

[bigjohn]

Thanks you, I just want to know where everyone stands on this call and why! I see rule coverage for illegal motion and case play coverage for illegal shift so it is a bit confusing. Bring back Illegal procedure!

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Yes, that is an illegal shift. In my example, for the sake of brevity I didn't address all possible examples. Shame on me...

Brevity is fine, but not at the expense of misleading people into thinking, "two in motion = illegal shift, one in motion = illegal motion." That's brief all right, but it's also wrong.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Brevity is fine, but not at the expense of misleading people into thinking, "two in motion = illegal shift, one in motion = illegal motion." That's brief all right, but it's also wrong.

Read my original post, I said nothing about one player in motion= illegal motion, I said one player in motion illegally. Those are two different things.