Two players in Motion

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Two players moving is illegal shift.

One player moving in motion illegally (going forward) is illegal motion.

Not correct. For example: two players move during a shift. One sets, the other does not. Ball is snapped. This is an illegal shift, and it doesn't matter whether the one player is moving "forward" at the snap.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not correct. For example: two players move during a shift. One sets, the other does not. Ball is snapped. This is an illegal shift, and it doesn't matter whether the one player is moving "forward" at the snap.

Yes, that is an illegal shift. In my example, for the sake of brevity I didn't address all possible examples. Shame on me...

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Yes, that is an illegal shift. In my example, for the sake of brevity I didn't address all possible examples. Shame on me...

Brevity is fine, but not at the expense of misleading people into thinking, "two in motion = illegal shift, one in motion = illegal motion." That's brief all right, but it's also wrong.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Brevity is fine, but not at the expense of misleading people into thinking, "two in motion = illegal shift, one in motion = illegal motion." That's brief all right, but it's also wrong.

Read my original post, I said nothing about one player in motion= illegal motion, I said one player in motion illegally. Those are two different things.

[ajmc]

A real simple solution, bigjohn, when there's a flag thrown on the field, just ask the wing man on your side line to explain what the call is, and accept what he tells you. Beating a horse to death just for the sake of beating him is cruel and unusual and may even be considered flagrant.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by grantsrc

Read my original post, I said nothing about one player in motion= illegal motion, I said one player in motion illegally. Those are two different things.

Oh, all you're saying is that illegal motion is illegal motion. Hard to argue with that. Brief, too.

[bigjohn]

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

If the above is correct, I have called this incorrectly about a zillion times.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

an excerpt from the above article.

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

I think that is erroneous. If you read the case book from this year, section 7.2.6, it appears that this is an illegal shift. Read play B and C.


7.2.6 SITUATION B:

Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped. RULING: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-39)

7.2.6 SITUATION C: After A has been set for more than one second, back A1 goes in motion. While A1 is in motion, back A2 takes one step forward and then resets. A1 is still in motion when the ball is snapped two seconds after A2 reset. RULING: Illegal shift. A2’s movement was a shift and the failure of the entire team to set for at least one second after the shift and before the snap is a foul at the snap. (2-39)

[bigjohn]

Is this illegal motion?

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...egalmotion.wmv

[grantsrc]

Ok, so I think I see the difference between all the plays mentioned in this thread. So if two players go in motion at the exact same time and don't stop, illegal motion per 7-2-7.

If two players go in motion and one of them resets, then it's an illegal shift per 7-2-6.

As for the video (I can't see it they block the site here at school), if I remember correctly, that's the play where the QB goes under center when the motion man goes in motion. Based on where my understanding of things thus far (which is a little shaky to say the least ) I believe this is an illegal shift. This was a POE this year, correct?

[kdf5]

Right. The back goes in motion then the QB steps under center and starts his cadence. This is an illegal shift since you had two in motion at the same time but the QB shifted (stopped moving) when he placed his hands under the center. Had the ball been snapped before the QB had been set for one second you would have had an IM. Since the ball was snapped after the QB was set for a second and the back didn't stop moving, you have and IS.