Mich St/ Mich

[zenman]

Originally Posted by TXMike

before I start into this with you...do you officiate under NCAA rules or are you just pulling out a bunch of language that you are trying to use (incorrectly) to "prove" a point?

No not an official just wondering. Just like all the people pulling one line from the rule book claiming it is the only thing under consideration. I'm no different and don't expect much from MSU fans but would like an officials opinion.

The rules seem to indicate that a completed pass in the end zone should be a touchdown.

The only requirement appears to be having progress stopped in the end zone.

Since the pylon is in the end zone and out of bounds his progress was stopped(by touching the pylon) in the end zone(by being in the end zone).

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by zenman

The only requirement appears to be having progress stopped in the end zone.

Since the pylon is in the end zone and out of bounds his progress was stopped(by touching the pylon) in the end zone(by being in the end zone).

As stated, an airborne player touching a pylon is out of bounds and the pass is incomplete. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement. Forward progress was not yet stopped in this play. He was still going forward. Notice in the AR's that I posted all involve a defensive player. A defensive player has to be the one stopping a players forward progress.

[zenman]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

As stated, an airborne player touching a pylon is out of bounds and the pass is incomplete. Forward progress is a term indicating the end of advancement. Forward progress was not yet stopped in this play. He was still going forward. Notice in the AR's that I posted all involve a defensive player. A defensive player has to be the one stopping a players forward progress.

His progress stopped when he hit the pylon. Anytime you are ruled out of bounds your progress is stopped. And in this case he is by definition in the end zone and since an airborne receiver whos progress is stopped in the end zone with a firm grip on the ball which seems to be all that is required. I would agree that it was not a touchdown if he hit or was outside of the boundry line when his progress was stopped but he was clearly by all of the rules I could find in the end zone. Just like in the navy utah bowl game a fumble that hit the pylon even though it did not go past the goal line was incorrectly ruled down at the one yard line. It should have ruled a touchback since the pylons are in the end zone. Which is what the NCAA said.

The ref in this game must have read the rule book and I wish that Delany would also.

The exceptions for completed and incomplete rules in the end zone were put in for a reason just as the definition that the end zone includes the pylons on the goal line for a reason. If plays like this should not be ruled a touchdown the rules committee should rewrite them.

I laughed as soon as they reviewed the play during the game because I new he was judging the play by the rule book and most people who have never read the rule book would never agree. It defied common sense but sometimes rules do.

[TXMike]

You clearly are a rules expert and are wasting your time here Why not contact Delaney and the Big Ten direct and let them know you are available to straighten them (and every other person who actualy understands NCAA Rules) out:
James E. Delany
Commissioner
1500 West Higgins Road
Park Ridge, IL 60068-6300
(847) 696-1010

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by zenman

His progress stopped when he hit the pylon. Anytime you are ruled out of bounds your progress is stopped. And in this case he is by definition in the end zone and since an airborne receiver whos progress is stopped in the end zone with a firm grip on the ball which seems to be all that is required. I would agree that it was not a touchdown if he hit or was outside of the boundry line when his progress was stopped but he was clearly by all of the rules I could find in the end zone. Just like in the navy utah bowl game a fumble that hit the pylon even though it did not go past the goal line was incorrectly ruled down at the one yard line. It should have ruled a touchback since the pylons are in the end zone. Which is what the NCAA said.

The ref in this game must have read the rule book and I wish that Delany would also.

The exceptions for completed and incomplete rules in the end zone were put in for a reason just as the definition that the end zone includes the pylons on the goal line for a reason. If plays like this should not be ruled a touchdown the rules committee should rewrite them.

I laughed as soon as they reviewed the play during the game because I new he was judging the play by the rule book and most people who have never read the rule book would never agree. It defied common sense but sometimes rules do.

Did you not even read the rule that states "an airborne player is out of bounds when he touches a pylon". There is not other rule that can trump that. Every rule in the book requires a player to COMPLETE the catch. By rule, to complete a catch you have to have firm control of the football AND some part of your body touching the ground (not the pylon) INBOUNDS. Again, the rule states that an airborne player is out of bounds NOT INBOUNDS when he touches the pylon. It appears however that you don't believe what the book says and I suspect you would argue with God over the words in the Bible.

[jjrye22]

Jason:
I expect he would have more success arguing the wording in the Bible - there are a lot of different translations of that book. Various organizations each claim theirs is the 'correct' version.
With the Rulebook, it is covered by 1 organization and 1 release that is valid (the current edition). Less wiggle room.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by zenman

The rules seem to indicate that a completed pass in the end zone should be a touchdown.

The rules in the end zone still require a receiver to come down with at least one foot in bounds

The only requirement appears to be having progress stopped in the end zone.

Since the pylon is in the end zone and out of bounds his progress was stopped(by touching the pylon) in the end zone(by being in the end zone).

Progress can only be stopped by another player who prevents the player from touching the ground in the end zone. And this is not to be confused with causing an airborne player to land out of bounds. That results in an incomplete pass.

Despite your attempt to make the rules say what they do not, the picture of the play in question defies all your attempts to argue that black is white.

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...xH=650&title=0

[zenman]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The rules in the end zone still require a receiver to come down with at least one foot in bounds


Progress can only be stopped by another player who prevents the player from touching the ground in the end zone. And this is not to be confused with causing an airborne player to land out of bounds. That results in an incomplete pass.

Despite your attempt to make the rules say what they do not, the picture of the play in question defies all your attempts to argue that black is white.

http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...xH=650&title=0

ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not
cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point
when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R.
8-5-1-I).

Incompleted Pass
ARTICLE 7. a. Any forward pass is incomplete if the ball is out of bounds by
rule or if it touches the ground when not firmly controlled by a player. It also is
incomplete when a player leaves his feet and receives the pass but first lands on
or outside a boundary line, unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone (Rule 4-1-3-p) (A.R. 2-2-7-III and A.R. 7-3-7-I).

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by zenman

ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not
cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point
when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R.
8-5-1-I).

Incompleted Pass
ARTICLE 7. a. Any forward pass is incomplete if the ball is out of bounds by
rule or if it touches the ground when not firmly controlled by a player. It also is
incomplete when a player leaves his feet and receives the pass but first lands on
or outside a boundary line, unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone (Rule 4-1-3-p) (A.R. 2-2-7-III and A.R. 7-3-7-I).

SECTION 2. Touchdown
How Scored
ARTICLE 1. A touchdown shall be scored when:
a. A runner advancing from the field of play is legally in possession of a live
ball when it penetrates the opponent’s goal line (plane) (Exception: Rule
4-2-4-e) (A.R. 2-23-1-I and A.R. 8-2-1-I-IV).
b. An eligible receiver catches a legal forward pass in the opponent’s end
zone (A.R. 5-1-3-I and II).

Now look at the definition of catch.

To catch, intercept or recover a ball, a player who leaves his feet to
make a catch, interception or recovery must have the ball firmly in his
possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply.

From page FR-81: b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

Now what is all this about 4-1-3-p that you keep claiming to trump all this. If you notice that is the rule that your post uses as a reference as well as mine.

Here it is:
When an airborne pass receiver from either team is so held and
subsequently carried that he is prevented from immediately returning to
the ground.

You see, in the play in question, that player WAS NOT held or carried that it prevented him from coming to the ground. He was simply pushed and hit the pylon before touching the ground inbounds. Incomplete Pass.

[TXMike]

WHy do you guys waste your time? The zenman is cearly in another zone and his alternative reality makes this a TD He is so wrapped up over the "fact" that the pylon is "in the EZ" he cannot see the fact that it is OUT OF BOUNDS. In his mind, the receiver came to ground in the end zone..period. Fortunately for everyone he is not officiating football at any level.

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by TXMike

WHy do you guys waste your time? The zenman is cearly in another zone and his alternative reality makes this a TD He is so wrapped up over the "fact" that the pylon is "in the EZ" he cannot see the fact that it is OUT OF BOUNDS. In his mind, the receiver came to ground in the end zone..period. Fortunately for everyone he is not officiating football at any level.

Because my parents told me I would argue with a brick wall.

[zenman]

Originally Posted by TXMike

WHy do you guys waste your time? The zenman is cearly in another zone and his alternative reality makes this a TD He is so wrapped up over the "fact" that the pylon is "in the EZ" he cannot see the fact that it is OUT OF BOUNDS. In his mind, the receiver came to ground in the end zone..period. Fortunately for everyone he is not officiating football at any level.

My parents said believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

Sorry if I offended you I just wanted to get a better understanding of the ruling in this case. I assummed maybe mistakenly that that part of the purpose of this forum was for fans to get a better understanding of the rules.

[zenman]

[QUOTE=JasonTX;548088]SECTION 2. Touchdown
How Scored
ARTICLE 1. A touchdown shall be scored when:
a. A runner advancing from the field of play is legally in possession of a live
ball when it penetrates the opponent’s goal line (plane) (Exception: Rule
4-2-4-e) (A.R. 2-23-1-I and A.R. 8-2-1-I-IV).
b. An eligible receiver catches a legal forward pass in the opponent’s end
zone (A.R. 5-1-3-I and II).

Now look at the definition of catch.

To catch, intercept or recover a ball, a player who leaves his feet to
make a catch, interception or recovery must have the ball firmly in his
possession when he first returns to the ground inbounds with any part of his body or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply.

From page FR-81: b. A player or an airborne player who touches a pylon is out of bounds.

Thanks this is what I was trying to find out since the rules for complete or incomplete pass was not that clear.

I did not see the exception in the end zone was the player had to be held.
or is so held that the dead-ball provisions of Rule 4-1-3-p apply

The incomplete pass said unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone. The reference attached contained the exception.

I knew he had not touched the boundry line and since the pylon was in the end zone it seemed to indicate that all that was needed was for his progress to be stopped in the end zone.


Thanks

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by zenman

ARTICLE 4. a. If a live ball is declared out of bounds and the ball does not
cross a boundary line, it is out of bounds at the ball’s most forward point
when it was declared dead (A.R. 4-2-4-I) (Exception: Rule 8-5-1-a, A.R.
8-5-1-I).

Incompleted Pass
ARTICLE 7. a. Any forward pass is incomplete if the ball is out of bounds by
rule or if it touches the ground when not firmly controlled by a player. It also is
incomplete when a player leaves his feet and receives the pass but first lands on
or outside a boundary line, unless his progress has been stopped in the field of
play or end zone (Rule 4-1-3-p) (A.R. 2-2-7-III and A.R. 7-3-7-I).

Neither citations are pertinent to the play in question.

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