Trick Play from Memphis-Louisville Game

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

That would be a foul at the snap, right? Live ball foul? If they score, they score, but you're bringing it back?

Dead ball foul in FED. Kill it as soon as you recognize it.

Case Book

9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, "Where’s the tee?" A2 replies, "I'll go get it" and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.

RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

[OverAndBack]

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

I say if the ball is snapped while the QB is walking away like that, I kill the play immediately and penalize USC. You are correct that everything they did up to the snap was legal and he can get back under center. That would be fine. But that's not what ultimately happened here.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Okay, I get that. But bear with me for a second...a quarterback who comes out from behind center...(so far we have nothing)...walks to a part of the field...(so far we still have nothing)...makes some hand motion that is not a time out (so far still nothing)...says or doesn't say something that may or may not be even English or football-related (still nothing)...could still, conceivably (if there's time on the play clock), get the signal, nod his head, walk up and go back under center and run a play with everybody ready for the snap, correct?

I understand the "where's the tee?" stuff and the "I'll go get it" bit and it's obviously deception that's not sportsmanlike, but until there's an actual snap that IS deceptive, you're kinda making a judgment call (that may be pre-emptive). I know, we make judgment calls all the time, but in the Memphis case above (let's assume it happened in NFHS, just for argument's sake), the quarterback could STILL have gone back under center and run a completely legal play, correct? And, you'd assume, the defense would see that and line up and be ready for it.

I'm just sayin'. We let a team that's shifting illegally or that has a bad formation get itself in proper alignment because it's not a foul until they actually snap the ball. I know what the casebook says about the "missing tee" instance (and it probably applies to the "wrong ball" type thing, too), but the specific play in the original post may or may not rise to that same level depending on the verbiage used.

Here's the key phrase:

actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal

Watch the video and check out how the defense reacts when the QB turns away from the snapper.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Watch the video and check out how the defense reacts when the QB turns away from the snapper.

Good point, I hadn't really focused on their reaction before. The linebackers that are positioned to rush all stand up and relax, the ball is then snapped.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Here's the key phrase:

actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal

Watch the video and check out how the defense reacts when the QB turns away from the snapper.

Fair enough. I guess it's no different than gauging intent for an intentional grounding or something similar. You'd better be right, though, and until there actually IS a snap that came while the defense believed it wasn't imminent, it's a tricky situation.

I see what you're saying, but I also see the point of view that they COULD make things right, no harm, no foul, before the snap. Not THAT snap, obviously. But a normal snap.

[BoomerSooner]

Would anybody rule differently if he had gone down the line to talk to a receiver? Just asking because my thought is that if they are conversing or signaling with the sideline then I'm calling this every time. It is that portion of it that makes it suspect in my mind. I think there are forms of deception that include snaping the ball to someone other than the center such as my description that should be allowed, but once you move toward the sideline or make a signal in the vicinity of the ref, we've got a penalty.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

I see what you're saying, but I also see the point of view that they COULD make things right, no harm, no foul, before the snap. Not THAT snap, obviously. But a normal snap.

Very true, which is why you hold the flag and whistle until the snap. I had a similar play in a JV game a couple of weeks ago. The offense came to the line and got set. The QB then stepped away and started walking to his sideline and calling out something to his coach.

At this point the warning flags in my head were raised. When the ball was snapped I was ready for it. This was the first snap from scrimmage in the second half. Fortunately one of the other officials and I were just discussing this type of play during half time.

If it doesn't look like a football play it probably isn't.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

once you move toward the sideline or make a signal in the vicinity of the ref, we've got a penalty.

Are you not allowed to move closer to the coach that may be giving you a legitimate play call signal?

What if the signal made in the vicinity of the ref is the one made in the video above? What's that supposed to mean?

Sometimes quarterbacks and/or receivers will tap the tops of their helmets, which has a meaning to them. What if a guy makes a peace sign? A shadow puppet? Another signal that means, in the team's parlance, "I didn't understand, give me the signal again?"

How do we know? I got nothing until either the ball is snapped or the "hey, that's the wrong ball" type situation. Your umpire should know if it's the wrong ball. And, you know what? If it's an approved ball and it's been set and the RFP has blown, I don't care, you're playing with that ball, so it ain't working on me.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by waltjp

. The offense came to the line and got set. The QB then stepped away and started walking to his sideline and calling out something to his coach.

So what if the QB isn't saying anything to the coach or sideline? What if he simply walks toward the end of his line - legally going in motion - and the ball is snapped directly to the fullback. Is that legal?

[OverAndBack]

Does it depend on whether or not he's gone under center and whether or not the act of removing himself from under center prior to going in motion simulates a snap?

If the quarterback yells something like "I forgot the play" or "Give me that again," a non-cynical person might conclude that he really forgot the play or wasn't clear on it - unless they then snap it to one of the up backs and he tries to score, then it becomes pretty obvious that it was a deceptive play that goes outside the realm of normal football deceptions. Then I'm flagging it - and letting the play run (I guess) and sorting it out afterwards. Supposin' the upback fumbles and B recovers?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Then I'm flagging it - and letting the play run (I guess) and sorting it out afterwards. Supposin' the upback fumbles and B recovers?

Do call live ball offsides fouls instead of dead ball encroachment also? It isn't your job to decide which fouls keep the ball from becoming live.

[ajmc]

Is it reasonable to suggest we are just football officials, not crafty defense lawyers arguing a case before the Supreme Court. Any coach who does not clearly understand the "Where's the "T" play", and anything remotely similar, is fatally toxic, is in the wrong business.

That is an absolute, "don't go there" situation and any coach who tries to squeeze out the latest variation of that type nonsense because of some minute differentiation, is knowingly risking playing with fire and has earned any USC flag he is presented with.

The best way to end any silly experimentation and quest for a variation that sneaks by, is to ensure the application of an USC penalty as consistently as possible. There is no reason, no excuse, no logic or argument for the results of such a farce to be allowed to stand.

[grantsrc]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The best way to end any silly experimentation and quest for a variation that sneaks by, is to ensure the application of an USC penalty as consistently as possible. There is no reason, no excuse, no logic or argument for the results of such a farce to be allowed to stand.

Agreed. There is no reason that a play like this should be allowed by rule.

[Robert Goodman]

As I think about the Fed rule, it makes me wonder whether the lines around it are too fuzzy. What about the unusual but not too rare tactic of snapping the ball on the signal of "ready" or "set", where that word usually precedes the snap count? The word is used in the hope that the defense will think the snap is not imminent.

Robert