Sayville NY Protest

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Except for this guy, of course.

Yeah, that post was a joke.

[GPC2]

Wow, tough deal Ed.

From looking at the video though, it appears that the LJ (or HL, whomever that was at the bottom of the screen) had a MUCH better look at it than you. For those that are criticizing you for being too close - it seems as if (like you said) you were coming in because there was a pile-up for the loose ball. It appears that by the time you got around the player to actually see the ball, the ball was up in the air.

Man, that was just a tough play - too bad it happened at that time, and not at a relatively innocuous moment.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The third down play ended at about 37-35 seconds and I debated holding the RFP finally giving it at 31 my logic being it would not be fair to not give Kings Park an opportunity in other words I did not want to influence the game.

I've heard that the average amount of time from the end of a down to the RFP is about 12-15 seconds. That's why the new college timing of 40/25 really should not be that different of a pace than what they had before. If the previous down ended at 35-37 seconds, it would not have been unusual to mark it RFP at 20-25 seconds remaining. If you had it marked RFP in 6 seconds, you must have had a runner down on his own (no tacklers on him or other to unpile) with the U right there to spot the ball right away.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Except for this guy, of course.

SanDiegoSteve certainly made it clear that he reserved the right to remain stupid!

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I've heard that the average amount of time from the end of a down to the RFP is about 12-15 seconds. That's why the new college timing of 40/25 really should not be that different of a pace than what they had before. If the previous down ended at 35-37 seconds, it would not have been unusual to mark it RFP at 20-25 seconds remaining. If you had it marked RFP in 6 seconds, you must have had a runner down on his own (no tacklers on him or other to unpile) with the U right there to spot the ball right away.

I agree. Perhaps that is your usual pace though Ed. Do you call a lot of delays of game through-out the season? If you do perhaps you could slow down your RFP through-out the entire game.

I also agree that we don't see everything. Even with 7 guys you don't see everything. Perspective limits us to usually two or three views of a play but sometimes it gets down to only one or maybe even none. I would bet that if you really looked at any game you were working that there is probably a time or two during the game where something could happen and nobody would see it. We work hard to limit those times but there is no guarantee that we can eliminate them.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Kings Park had two timeouts remaining and they were going to use them. The third down play ended at about 37-35 seconds and I debated holding the RFP finally giving it at 31 my logic being it would not be fair to not give Kings Park an opportunity in other words I did not want to influence the game.

That is way to fast to blow the RFP. That is only 4-6 seconds after the down ended. I understand that you don't want to deprive B from a chance at winning but you don't want to hurry up and deprive A of a sure victory.

Dick Honig would blow the RFP 13 seconds after the down ended. That would put you at 24-22 seconds left and A would have never snapped the ball. Check ou the youtube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YladJ-etR4

[Rich]

Originally Posted by GPC2

Wow, tough deal Ed.

From looking at the video though, it appears that the LJ (or HL, whomever that was at the bottom of the screen) had a MUCH better look at it than you. For those that are criticizing you for being too close - it seems as if (like you said) you were coming in because there was a pile-up for the loose ball. It appears that by the time you got around the player to actually see the ball, the ball was up in the air.

Man, that was just a tough play - too bad it happened at that time, and not at a relatively innocuous moment.

It's really not a criticism. It's just something I've thought about and really feel -- I do not close in during these fumble situations (or most other situations) as hard as I used to -- I have an umpire and two wings who should be closing in. OTOH, something like this could happen, or alternatively, the defense could scoop it up and head towards me quickly. If I'm too close, I could get steamrolled or perhaps miss something (this play). On top of that, I'm the one who has the goal line and if the ball does come the other way, I don't want to have the player blow by me before I can even start in that direction.

[GPC2]

OK Rich, that makes more sense - you're saying somebody should be closing in, but not necessarily the R. I actually like what you just said and I will probably incorporate that into my mechanics if/when a similar situation presents itself. Because like you said (although it was apparently an illegal action), the players did blow by Ed on the play, so if there was a play at the GL he really wouldn't have been close enough to properly officiate it.

Good stuff.

[OverAndBack]

Not an R, but it seems to me that the teams can sometimes dictate the pace of the RFP. 13 seconds probably sounds reasonable (sounds like not much time, but a lot can happen in there). Sometimes even if teams don't "hurry up" they have a quick pace to their offensive game, and as a crew, you should match that. You can manage it a little bit, I guess, but our job is to facilitate.

As to this play in particular, shoot, it could happen to anybody. Sucks when the play you miss is THAT PLAY and it ends up being the one that the video goes everywhere on. Hang in there, Ed. NOBODY who's done this for any length of time hasn't been on the wrong side of something like this. Doesn't make it any easier for you to take, I'm sure, but we've got your back.

[Jmuvol]

"It's absurd that the Section doesn't even take it to committee," Sayville coach Rob Hoss said. "This official missed the play badly, didn't follow protocol, and my players are getting penalized. This whole thing is ridiculous.

"The head official blew the protocol by not listening and addressing my complaint on the field and convening with his crew. He spoke to the crew after the touchdown was scored and then I asked to speak with them about the play and he refused. I have a right to protest, and that in itself should be enough reason to listen to our complaint with the entire crew so they can think about it and make the right decision."

Bob Hallick, president of the Suffolk County Football Officials Association, said, "It was a judgment call and that's it. We don't have protests over judgment calls."

Hoss said the district plans to appeal yesterday's ruling.

"By Section XI rule, I have to protest on the field and the official has to give me the opportunity to make that protest," he said. "If he doesn't, then what kind of due process is that? This official basically broke the Section XI rule on the field. How can he explain the ball traveling 11 yards in the air from the ground without someone throwing it?

"Our biggest argument is that they never gave us due process to contest the call on the field," Hoss said. "I screamed at the official to come to me and hear what I had to say. He refused to hear my concerns about the illegality of the play. That in itself is a huge violation of Section XI protocol. The official has to explain why he didn't convene after I protested on the field. This is not over."


They were denied there 879th Admendment right of Due Process on the Football Field. How dare the referee not allow a protest on a judgement call. The coaches have been watching Law and Order for years...they know their rights. They should appeal the ruling to the Supreme Court. The outcome of this game is of national and international importance.

Like most everyone else here, I hate that this happended, especially to someone as well respected as Ed. But bad things happen some days. We learn and go on. Keep your head up guys...the screaming idiots will find something else to yell about soon.

[MrUmpire]

I have learned to take this opportunity to prolong whining away from coaches. I utilize the philosophy we are taught in baseball....the official does not rule on the legitimacy of protests, he just accepts the notice of protest....even on judgment calls.

When he says the word "protest" I write it down along with the time in the game, scenario and any ruling, and then move on. He got his notice of protest recognized, and I've got the game going again.

Let the "protest committee" tell him that judgment can't be protested.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Had Sayville gotten off the quick kick as planned what would have happened. Probably nothing but the end of the game.

Sorry to divert from the officiating perspective, but just gotta complain from a coaching perspective. You might want to quick kick with 60 seconds left, but with 6 secs. that's just crazy. Too much can go wrong.

What you do is try to run that 6 secs. off the clock running, or standing with tight pass protection. If the circumstances were a little different a retreat to the end zone might be in order. Whatever, the possibility of leaving a second on the clock with your opponents to snap the ball is better than producing a loose ball and scramble, which is what you get even if you execute the quick kick well.

Robert

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

I agree. Perhaps that is your usual pace though Ed. Do you call a lot of delays of game through-out the season? If you do perhaps you could slow down your RFP through-out the entire game.

I also agree that we don't see everything. Even with 7 guys you don't see everything. Perspective limits us to usually two or three views of a play but sometimes it gets down to only one or maybe even none. I would bet that if you really looked at any game you were working that there is probably a time or two during the game where something could happen and nobody would see it. We work hard to limit those times but there is no guarantee that we can eliminate them.

Our RFP is usually 12-15 seconds which in this area is pretty fast and we know, if you want snaps we'll give them to you. The coaches have adapted and DOGs are less than .5/game for a season, we had two in this game and both against Sayville the last one and one at 3:12 which we told the QB as time to snap and he was looking at the clock.

Not to make excuses but we started 5-man this year and there are adjustments and I will be reviewing those for tomorrow's game.

[Theisey]

Ed, 12 to 15 seconds from the end of the last play? Based on a 40 second playclock in the big leagues, your max would be dead on a for a full 25 at that point.

What I'd really like to know is your feel for how long you have been taking from the point the ball is spotted before the RFP?

We've been using 3 to 4 seconds all year any have had little problems. That point is covered in our meeting with the head coach so they know.. we're not waiting around for them. it will be consistent all game long. Ball spotted. tick tick tick then the RFP.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Theisey

Ed, 12 to 15 seconds from the end of the last play? Based on a 40 second playclock in the big leagues, your max would be dead on a for a full 25 at that point.

What I'd really like to know is your feel for how long you have been taking from the point the ball is spotted before the RFP?

My umpire usually spots the ball within 5 seconds if in the middle and about 8-10 from the side zone.

We've been using 3 to 4 seconds all year any have had little problems. That point is covered in our meeting with the head coach so they know.. we're not waiting around for them. it will be consistent all game long. Ball spotted. tick tick tick then the RFP.

I let the coaches know before the game. Some other officials don't move the game that fast so early on I remind them especially being a DOG slows the game down.