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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 03:47pm
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In our league the teams have always make sure that their lineup cards are correct before they hand them to an umpire.....Team one is at bat when team two discovers that team 1 has an illegal batter that is not on the lineup card and is also the pitcher.The manager from team one forgot to include the pitchers name on the line up card.Team one has ten players on the lineup card and eleven batters..What should be done....This is what was done...The illegal batter was called out and would receive an out everytime this spot in the order was to bat....Was this the right call!!
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 05:56pm
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Question

Quote:
Originally posted by kssa
In our league the teams have always make sure that their lineup cards are correct before they hand them to an umpire.....Team one is at bat when team two discovers that team 1 has an illegal batter that is not on the lineup card and is also the pitcher.The manager from team one forgot to include the pitchers name on the line up card.Team one has ten players on the lineup card and eleven batters..What should be done....This is what was done...The illegal batter was called out and would receive an out everytime this spot in the order was to bat....Was this the right call!!
I think that we need a little more info.....
What game were you playing? Slowpitch with EP,
CO-ED with EPs? Also how & when did this batter
become illegal? Were there other subs available?
Had a pitch been thrown prior to this discovery?
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 06:04pm
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Mens slow pitch.with an ep.the team did have a sub.Also what about the manager handing in a illegal linup card.
The batter was discovered by the other team when he batted.One pitch had been thrown.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 06:15pm
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gary.............

This sounds like a honest screw-up to me........was the pitcher on the team roster and just accidentally left out of the line-up?

They have got to be put somewhere on the card..........had the pitcher played defensively and then came into bat.......to many what ifs.

In your scenerio.........I would have allowed the proper batter in the order to come to the plate to resume the count of the improper batter (the Pitcher whos name was left off the card)........I would have inserted the pitcher into the lineup in the last batting place for a defensive player (10th spot).

I would NOT have ruled an out.........I would NOT have removed the pitcher as an unannounced sub.........(although that could be a possibility)

Arggggggghhhhhhhhhh...............there are too many possibilities here...........first of all .......... what rules are you playing under? ASA, USSSA, ???

Secondly......if the 11th player was marked as an EP.......the ump screwed up by not counting.......

Give us more info.

Joel
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 06:49pm
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Red face

ASA rules....The pitcher was on the teams roster.What about the fact that the manager handed in a illegal lineup card,should the game have been called there ? What a mess !!!
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 07:31pm
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Pregame. Look over lineup card. Hand each one back to team manager/coach: "Is this your correct lineup"?

Saves a lot of trouble.

Bob
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 08:02pm
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Illegal lineup card??

It was a mistake..........a correctable error.........correct it when the error is found and play ball.

2nd question..........was this a league game or a State/Regional/National tournament.........

If it was a league game............forget it.......the coach made a correctable boo-boo.........fix it when it's found and go on with the game....

One of my favorite sayings..........(the umpire who coined this is probably in his grave)

Don't go pickin' for boogers........

Joel


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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 08:56pm
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Cool

I agree with Joel, correct it and carry on.


Joel......

where do you get the sayings????

glen
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--Mark Twain.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 09:18pm
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Since this was a league game, fix it and continue with 11 players. If it were in a tournament, you have a team using 10 players and now have an unreported sub. Bob's right, always get the captain/coach to verify that the lineup is correct. When I check the card, I'll say something like "Using a DP to hit for the pitcher" - noticing that we have 10 on the lineup and who is not batting. I'll also ask if all subs are listed - knowing that any rostered player may be added to the lineup card as a sub at any time. Yeah the coach handed in a card that shorted his team - it's league play, use it in a way that everyone learns. And Joel's saying - the way I first heard it - was don't go looking for boogers - I think I heard it from Tee.
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Old Wed Jul 25, 2001, 09:27pm
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Ooooooooohhhhhhhhhh

Tee's no-where near dead.............(eek)...........but has enough years umpiring "some" might think he is...............

Joel
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Old Thu Jul 26, 2001, 12:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by kssa
In our league the teams have always make sure that their lineup cards are correct before they hand them to an umpire.....Team one is at bat when team two discovers that team 1 has an illegal batter that is not on the lineup card and is also the pitcher.The manager from team one forgot to include the pitchers name on the line up card.Team one has ten players on the lineup card and eleven batters..What should be done....This is what was done...The illegal batter was called out and would receive an out everytime this spot in the order was to bat....Was this the right call!!
Okay, being the anal retentive umpire I am, the pitcher (11th man) is DQd and the team continues the game with 10 players. Everything which occurred in the game up to the point of discovery is legal excluding any advance during the "unreported subs" at bat. How can you declare the "illegal" batter out for everytime his spot in the order was to bat if he was never in the line up to start?
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Old Fri Jul 27, 2001, 07:48pm
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Cool

Mike...........Us..........call you anal?????

I'm shocked.....


If I were in a league that perceived themselves as "by the book".......I would follow your advice and the CORRECT interpretation of the situation.

If it were an ASA 12U league team or a D church league team.......I would explain the rule and move forward.......(as long as both coaches agreed)

The problem with this post was that the protester never explained what was protested? Did they want a BOO or an ineligble sub or an illegal sub?

As an umpire I would make darn sure that the protesting manager made it perfectly clear what infraction of the rules he was protesting.

Simply saying ....... I don't think that a protest citing an "illegal line-up card" would be upheld.

You as well as I know that there is no such thing and players may be added as they show up to the game.

If the manager was such an a$$ in a Rec game that he wanted to protest such a minor infraction...........I am NOT going to help him by pointing out the rule that he wishes to protest.

As I originally stated.........an unreported sub was a possibility...........but I would have a hard time enforcing it in a league game.

Maybe I am way off base..........but because this was an "AA" game......(grin) .......I might cut them even a bit more slack.....

Joel

ps......I may have my first "AA" game this Monday.......I'll get back to you with more details.......

Joel





[Edited by Gulf Coast Blue on Jul 27th, 2001 at 07:52 PM]
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Old Fri Jul 27, 2001, 08:52pm
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gulf Coast Blue
[B]
Maybe I am way off base..........but because this was an "AA" game......(grin) .......I might cut them even a bit more slack.....

Joel

[Edited by Steve M on Jul 27th, 2001 at 08:54 PM]
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Old Sat Jul 28, 2001, 08:14am
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Joel,

I have had this call in a "rec" league game and it wasn't hard to sell at all.

Midway through the 3rd inning a coach brought his book out and told me the other team was batting out of order.

Bob was standing in the box, but by his book Charlie should be up. I called the other coach out with his scorebook for comparison. The protesting coach's book showed the other team to be batting 10 players while the other book showed 11 in the line up.

Well, I reached into my ball bag and removed my line-up card holder and checked out the always-well-maintained line-up card. Sure enough, only 10 players on my line-up card. I compared the my line-up to the book and there is Jack's name in the book, but not on the card.

I asked the coach if that was Jack on 1st base (last batter) and he said no. Easy call, "Coach, Jack is done for the game, let's play ball." Of course, now the other coach wants a forfeit, or at least an out, for the mistake. Told him that was not the appropriate remedy, but if he wanted to play under protest, I would be more than happy to sign his book, but we were going to continue the game. His team lost, he filed the protest and lost.

Aesop's moral of this story:

Never underestimate the value of maintaining a line-up card.
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Old Sat Jul 28, 2001, 08:19am
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And as always......you speak the truth.

The local "beer league" that I may take my first foray into calling SP.....I am not even sure they have line-up cards......grin

I have only watched 4-5 games to get a feel for it if the assignor needs me.......should find out by Monday if I am needed Monday night.

Joel
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