illegal shift or illegal motion

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by kdf5

If by "needs work" you mean you took offense to what I wrote then I apologize. I meant no offense to anyone. If the explanation was close but not quite spot on, it was because it was early in the morn when I wrote it.

No, no, I don't get offended by posts on the internet! Life is too short for that.

I meant only that the point is somewhat technical, and I didn't see the precision of Bob's account in your post.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Sorry, mbyron and waltjp, but it is correct. Two men moving at the snap can't be an illegal shift because an illegal shift could only be called if one of the two stopped moving, or shifted (2-39...A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.), which in the original play, didn't happen. A shift happens once a player stops moving. Once any player shifts, then they all have to shift (stop moving). Walt, you claim this is a an illegal shift and highlight the part about all 11 players must come to a stop, which is correct, BUT after a shift and after at least one second of everyone remaining motionless after that shift, someone then can go in motion and be in motion at the snap. Note that 7-2-7 says it can only be ONE player. This is from Bob M's article: Motion vs. Shift:

PLAY: Set backs A10 and A32 mistakenly both go in motion on the QB’s signal. Their motion is parallel to the line of scrimmage. The ball is snapped (a) while both are still moving, or (b) after A10 stops, realizing that something’s wrong, while A32 continues with his motion. RULING: In (a) Team A is guilty of illegal motion. They have two players moving at the snap. [Note: this is a foul that a lot of referees mistakenly call an illegal shift.] In (b) A is guilty of an illegal shift. Once A10 stops, he’s completed a shift, which requires all eleven offensive players—including A32—to be set for at least one second.

http://home.comcast.net/~minnmo/foot...-newFormat.doc

Nobody has more respect for Bob M.'s opinions than I. On this one I happen to disagree. IMHO a legal shift must be completed before one man can go in motion - therefore an illegal shift. But it's not worth making a big deal out of it. The results are pretty much the same.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by mbyron

No, no, I don't get offended by posts on the internet! Life is too short for that.

I meant only that the point is somewhat technical, and I didn't see the precision of Bob's account in your post.

Somewhere I read that Bob is a "contracts manager". That would probably account for his concise and detailed writing.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by dumbref

Nobody has more respect for Bob M.'s opinions than I. On this one I happen to disagree. IMHO a legal shift must be completed before one man can go in motion - therefore an illegal shift. But it's not worth making a big deal out of it. The results are pretty much the same.

REPLY: You're right that it's just a technicality. But...

NF 7-2-7:
"ART. 7 . . . Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line."

...and...

"PENALTY: Illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) – (S19); illegal snap (Art. 4) – (S7- 19); illegal numbering (Art. 5) – (S19); illegal shift (Art. 6) – (S20); illegal motion (Art. 7) – (S20); planned loose-ball infraction (Art. 8) – (S19) – 5 yards."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dumbref

Nobody has more respect for Bob M.'s opinions than I. On this one I happen to disagree. IMHO a legal shift must be completed before one man can go in motion - therefore an illegal shift. But it's not worth making a big deal out of it. The results are pretty much the same.

Did you read Bob M.'s piece? With 2 men in motion, it's not a shift until one of them sets. THEN it's a shift, and an illegal one if the other fails to set before the snap.

Merely having 2 men in motion is not by itself a shift, and thus it cannot be an illegal shift. But it IS motion, and thus illegal motion if they're both still moving at the snap.

Bob also mentions in the piece that the point is a technicality, since it's likely to be flagged and enforced identically, no matter what it's called.

[dumbref]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: You're right that it's just a technicality. But...

NF 7-2-7:
"ART. 7 . . . Only one A player may be in motion at the snap and then only if such motion is not toward his opponent’s goal line."

...and...

"PENALTY: Illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) – (S19); illegal snap (Art. 4) – (S7- 19); illegal numbering (Art. 5) – (S19); illegal shift (Art. 6) – (S20); illegal motion (Art. 7) – (S20); planned loose-ball infraction (Art. 8) – (S19) – 5 yards."

Bob,

How do you pronounce potato? Don't make me type 7-2-6 and all the summary penalties and highlight the words … let’s call the whole thing off! Great artical BTW!