No one saw it!

[The Cynic]

LDUB:

Where to even begin...

They say it is not fair to enter a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but hey, as you proved, I don't obey the rules.


First of all, my team and I received an apology from the covering official on the play. Therefore, I would say they didn't get it right. Beyond that, everyone who responded on this thread seems to agree that if the ball carrier ends up in the end zone with the ball and no one saw at least a knee down then it should have been ruled a good conversion. I was there. No one saw a knee down and no one said they did. Once again, it seems as though they didn't get it right.

You claim that the officials would have come to the same conclusion with or without the coaches on the field. Are you sure about that? Take a look at who is standing right next to the Referee when he makes the call… that's right... it is the coach from team B. What did he say? Is it not possible that he influenced the referee, since the referee wasn't huddling with his crew?

Dead ball multiple unsportmanlike conduct penalties would be marched off in both directions at the free kick line which would essentially mean that they would "offset". Before you hurt yourself typing, I know the difference in semantics, but the end result is "offset." Most people in the real word would know what I was saying without trying to play the role of the Philadelphia lawyer. Even the umpire in charge of marching off the penalties would agree with me and likely save himself the 30 yard trip back to where he began.

You use semantics in your next argument too. There is 30 sesonds left. We are down one point and have to kick off. What are the odds that we win that game? Less than 1% chance I would say. If we had gotten the call in our favor, what would our odds be then? Would those odds have increased by over 95%? I am quite sure. That is what I mean by "game over." {We tried the onside kick and didn't get it. And remarkably, we lost} If you don't agree with my logic, please don't go to Vegas and try and make a living. You won't make too much money trying to hit on 19 or 20 while playing blackjack.

Then there is the point that I suck as a coach. Maybe that's true. You are only as good as your last game (We won that one by one point). It’s open to interpretation. I am sure that the nine county/area coach of the year awards that our staff has won over the past five years would be no indication of our ability to coach...not to mention the fact that we have the three best records in the history of the school including an undefeated season last year.

To question the antics of the coaches given the situation is akin to asking what color the curtains were inside the house that burnt down.

Why don’t you step off the field for a year and into the coaches’ box. Remember, I have done your job, are you sure you can do mine?

Take your time working the math on the Pythagorean theorem. It can be real tricky.

[OverAndBack]

Mathews coach Jim Parry said he was told by the officials that no one in a striped shirt saw Jackson cross the goal line with the ball.

“It was tough for the officials, they didn’t see it, nobody saw it. My argument was if nobody saw it why does it go against us,” Parry said.

“They just said ‘We didn’t see it,’ so he doesn’t get the score.

“A whistle blew when our kid was standing in the end zone. They didn’t see it, it’s not their fault, I don’t know the ruling on it, but it was an unfortunate situation.”


That Jim Parry guy, he seemed like the reasonable sort right after the game.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

First of all, my team and I received an apology from the covering official on the play. Therefore, I would say they didn't get it right. Beyond that, everyone who responded on this thread seems to agree that if the ball carrier ends up in the end zone with the ball and no one saw at least a knee down then it should have been ruled a good conversion. I was there. No one saw a knee down and no one said they did. Once again, it seems as though they didn't get it right.

What is your point? I haven't discussed if it was a touchdown or not.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You claim that the officials would have come to the same conclusion with or without the coaches on the field. Are you sure about that? Take a look at who is standing right next to the Referee when he makes the call… that's right... it is the coach from team B. What did he say? Is it not possible that he influenced the referee, since the referee wasn't huddling with his crew?

All the more reason to not allow them on the field in the first place.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Dead ball multiple unsportmanlike conduct penalties would be marched off in both directions at the free kick line which would essentially mean that they would "offset". Before you hurt yourself typing, I know the difference in semantics, but the end result is "offset." Most people in the real word would know what I was saying without trying to play the role of the Philadelphia lawyer. Even the umpire in charge of marching off the penalties would agree with me and likely save himself the 30 yard trip back to where he began.

Actually we were talking aboout sideline warnings. Depending on how many times it had been called during the game the penalty could have been 0, 5, or 15 yards on each team.

And no, I'm not a Philadelphia Lawyer. Saying dead ball USC fouls offset is complety wrong. Some people will beleive that and then on a try they will have the peanlties offset instead of enforcing them both, one of which would be half the distance to the goal line instead of 15 yards.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You use semantics in your next argument too. There is 30 sesonds left. We are down one point and have to kick off. What are the odds that we win that game? Less than 1% chance I would say. If we had gotten the call in our favor, what would our odds be then? Would those odds have increased by over 95%? I am quite sure. That is what I mean by "game over." {We tried the onside kick and didn't get it. And remarkably, we lost} If you don't agree with my logic, please don't go to Vegas and try and make a living. You won't make too much money trying to hit on 19 or 20 while playing blackjack.

So the game wasn't over after the try. Your team still tried to win. Obviosly they were losing with not a lot of time left therefore their chances of winning were not very high.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Then there is the point that I suck as a coach. Maybe that's true. You are only as good as your last game (We won that one by one point). It’s open to interpretation. I am sure that the nine county/area coach of the year awards that our staff has won over the past five years would be no indication of our ability to coach...not to mention the fact that we have the three best records in the history of the school including an undefeated season last year.

Maybe you would have the 4 best records in the history of the school if you played the last 30 seconds of every game

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Why don’t you step off the field for a year and into the coaches’ box. Remember, I have done your job, are you sure you can do mine?

No thanks.

[The Cynic]

If you really want to hear what was said to the reporters after the game there is an audio clip...

From the Warren Tribune website:

http://extras.tribtoday.com/football...dio/week01.asp

Again, Our players and coaches have utmost respect for officials and even the officials in this game. I do believe it was an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

If you will listen to the entire audio clip, I hope you agree that we tried quickly to put everything in perspective with our players.

The coach from the other team and I joke about the situation all the time. It's not the end of the world, but at the same time it was hard locker room to address that night. As I said before, I just hope people on this site learn form it, so that if something similar happens in the future, they will have the tools to make an informed desicion.

[daggo66]

Communication among the crew is paramount in any situation where there is doubt. I had a game several years ago. Team A was riding a 39 game losing streak. They scored late in the game (less than a minute) and were down by one. They decided to go for 2. The play was a quick short pass over the middle that was low. It clearly skipped before the diving receiver scooped it up. The BJ was screened out of the play. The U turned and saw it (as did I at R). He immediately signaled incomplete. The two wings who came in and were looking only at each other at this moment were about to signal something. I started shouting NO, NO, NO to the them. To my complete horror as they looked at each other, they nodded and signalled a TD. The crowd went wild thinking the streak was about to end. I had to break the news to the very unhappy coach. They did recover the ensuing onside kick, but were not able to score. The place was going nuts as we left the field. As luck would have it the school was locked and we had to wait to enter the locker room. We waited for an eternity. During this time a player from the losing team eventually came up to me. He identified hinself as that receiver. He told me that I was right and the ball did in fact hit the ground before he caught it. I thanked him for his honesty and told him that he had a great deal of class. I then asked him if he would mind announcing that to the 5,000 people still yelling at me! Years later I was working an adult flag game. I was downfield and ruled a no catch on a low pass. The receiver came up to me and said, "Do you remember me? I was that receiver in the high school game were you ruled a no catch." I told him that I did and he replied, "That's twice you were right. I've got to stay away from you!"

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Again, Our players and coaches have utmost respect for officials and even the officials in this game.

Just not the ones on this forum, apparently.



We kid, we kid.

Coach, nobody tries to get it wrong. We all try to get it right. We all make mistakes. We hope they don't cost someone a game. Sometimes they do.

It's a great game, but it's not a perfect one, and never will be.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

I thought there were 30 seconds left in the game. How does that down decide the game if there are 30 seconds left?

You are kidding right? You can't get the play call ruling right but you are going to get the sideline warning on this? Seems like a recipe for disaster imo.

I don't do football, but I know that if I kick a call or we as a crew miss a rule on the basketball floor and the coach comes to the end of the bench to chew on me/us I will give him *some* latitude and I sure as heck aint gonna hit with a "coaches box" warning or tech unless he goes bananas and shows us up... different story and one I have to address.

Case in point... I had a game where I am the referee and one of my umpires hits his whistle once the ball is live after a timeout and sprints over to me frantically saying he has a technical foul as he has 6 players on the court. I immediately look and I only see 5 of his players. The coach starts to protest and I tell him to be calm for a minute... I take the co-official in question far away from the benches and instruct my other official to watch the players. We discuss it and I say I only counted 5. He insists that one ran off the sidelines as he ran over to me. I can't convince him there were not 6 and I don't know for sure that one did not leave so we assess the Technical foul as he made the call. I tell him to go administer the the free throws while I deal with the coach. Coach is waaaaaaaay not happy and he vents. Because I think he may be right I let him have at me allowing some things to be said that would have gotten him a "T" right away under different circumstances but he needs to vent and he is not in his coaches box. If I whack him here, I am gonna have to toss him and make a bad sitch worse. However, he does not stop there and his clip board suddenly slams into the floor due to his thrusting it that direction... now we have to give him a "T" and he knows it. Game ended without any more probs. Two weeks later I see him and he compliments my handling of the situation and completely agreed with the "T" I assessed directly to him.

Pouring salt in coaches wounds is not smart. Rule Book officiating sometimes accomplishes salt in the wound and you need to use people skills at this point and use the book as a guideline.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

"That's twice you were right. I've got to stay away from you!"

Can I nominate this for all time greatest 1-line quote on this board?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

You are kidding right? You can't get the play call ruling right but you are going to get the sideline warning on this? Seems like a recipe for disaster imo.

I don't do football, but I know that if I kick a call or we as a crew miss a rule on the basketball floor and the coach comes to the end of the bench to chew on me/us I will give him *some* latitude and I sure as heck aint gonna hit with a "coaches box" warning or tech unless he goes bananas and shows us up... different story and one I have to address.

There is a difference between being 3 feet out of the box in basketball and coming out to the middle of the field on the goal line in football. Also, a sideline warning has no penalty for the first one. Coming out to the middle of the field isn't acceptable.

Your whole thing about maybe getting the call wrong and allowing someone latitude doesn't even apply to this situation as there were coaches from both teams all the way out there while the officials were discussing things before a call had even been made.

And yes, it should be a USC foul if a coach is out there arguing. In basketball if you want to give the coach latitude that is fine. He is in the box and you let him say a few bad things, or maybe he is out of the box but you let it go. But leaving the box by 30 feet (I think that distance in BB is equitable to how far away these guys were from the team area in the FB game) and arguing...I don't see how that is not a technical foul.

[The Cynic]

We had an interesting game this week. We were down 17 points with 30 seconds left to go. I did what Ldub said. I used all 3 timeouts and ran our two minute offense. We still lost. I will try again next week.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parepat

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

My God, what a clusterf**k.

I am a WH and I guarantee you that once the wings and umpire were looking at each other with a clueless look on their face, I would've been grabbing officials and having a conference away from the players, probably back at about the 10 yard line.

I've been grooming a crew member to be the WH in case I'm ever injured or cannot work on a Friday night. Like I told him last week, one thing you always have to give is at least the illusion that you are in charge and are in control. This guy stood there with his thumbs up his backside. I would've been grabbing officials, pulling them to the side, and having a conversation in private. I did that last week on a simple false start / encroachment that certainly didn't have the bearing this did on the game -- but with 4 flags on the field, you'd better talk and I don't talk with players in earshot.

Right or wrong, I also tell my wings to make a call in this situation immediately if the umpire can't help. Right or wrong, MAKE A CALL. The reality is, look at this play -- there's no way ANY of us can tell definitively if the runner got in or not. The camera is not straight down the goal line, and even if it was, it's the same look that the wings got, which was nada. Would there be a video on YouTube if the L simply got a spot and signaled "no good" right away?

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by LDUB

There is a difference between being 3 feet out of the box in basketball and coming out to the middle of the field on the goal line in football. Also, a sideline warning has no penalty for the first one. Coming out to the middle of the field isn't acceptable.

Your whole thing about maybe getting the call wrong and allowing someone latitude doesn't even apply to this situation as there were coaches from both teams all the way out there while the officials were discussing things before a call had even been made.

And yes, it should be a USC foul if a coach is out there arguing. In basketball if you want to give the coach latitude that is fine. He is in the box and you let him say a few bad things, or maybe he is out of the box but you let it go. But leaving the box by 30 feet (I think that distance in BB is equitable to how far away these guys were from the team area in the FB game) and arguing...I don't see how that is not a technical foul.

If you want to get the small stuff while screwing up the big stuff have at it and good luck. You seem to think that is what needs to be picked up here so I will not try to convince you otherwise.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

If you want to get the small stuff while screwing up the big stuff have at it and good luck. You seem to think that is what needs to be picked up here so I will not try to convince you otherwise.

Let's say there's a blarge on a play with 3 seconds left in the game, tie score. Both coaches run out to the free throw line to argue.

No technicals?

Hey, don't sweat the small stuff.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Let's say there's a blarge on a play with 3 seconds left in the game, tie score. Both coaches run out to the free throw line to argue.

No technicals?

Hey, don't sweat the small stuff.

I did not say don't take care of the situation... my crew would get them back to the sidelines and prob no technical... But these situations are not the same because the coaches are always within about 45 feet of the action they can see what is traspiring between the officials where as in football you have no idea what is going on if you are over 25 yards from what is going on... Also, in basketball we rarely have long discussions on plays... if there is a blarge and both officials signal by rule its a double foul and we move on. In this sitch the crew is bumbling around for an inordinate amount of time and no one knows what is going on...remember the game outcome hinges on what they decide...lets worry about that vs a warning... apples and oranges... but like I said if you guys wanna dig for boogers have at it...

The coaches in this play are standing down there trying to find out what the call is going to be while the crew has there thumb in their butt... lets concentrate on getting the stuff that really matters before we worry about a sideline warning...

[The Cynic]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

but like I said if you guys wanna dig for boogers have at it...

You summed up in one eloquent (eyes of the beholder) phrase what I was trying to do in paragraphs... great lesson in brevity, to be sure.