No one saw it!

[Jim D]

The LJ comes in to mark a spot, although, according to the posts, he didn't have one. The BJ comes up, but then he takes root so two of the crew are firmly holding their spots although they have no reason to do so. They won't come over to the R to talk, but he won't come to them either. Although there was a lot of confusion, they seem content to discuss this at a distance with the teams right in the middle of the discussion. This crew looked like they didn't even try to get this right.

[ajmc]

After looking at the u-tube video several times, it appears the ball carrier #21goes into a pile, and the pile goes down, after which #21 resurfaces in the EZ. Without knowing what was being said between the two wing men, who were obviously talking to each other, it's hard to know what was being discussed.

Based on the results of the play, it appears at least one of them had him down before the goal line. The fact that neither left where they were standing, suggests where they were standing was the spot, which was shy of the goal line. If anything one, or both wing officials, should have "sold" their spot a lot harder.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by ajmc

After looking at the u-tube video several times, it appears the ball carrier #21goes into a pile, and the pile goes down, after which #21 resurfaces in the EZ. Without knowing what was being said between the two wing men, who were obviously talking to each other, it's hard to know what was being discussed.

Based on the results of the play, it appears at least one of them had him down before the goal line. The fact that neither left where they were standing, suggests where they were standing was the spot, which was shy of the goal line. If anything one, or both wing officials, should have "sold" their spot a lot harder.

As previously stated in earlier posts, the linesman could not find the ball and did not have a spot. He is standing at the spot (why, we don't know) and asking the umpire where the ball is. The line judge is never seen in this video. The other official near the goal line is the umpire. The line judge also did not see the ball nor have a spot.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Alright guys... here is the infamous play. Parepat has provided most of the details correctly with an exception or two. You will see the back judge run in (not just stand there), but he never locates the ball carrier.

I am curious... do you think he gets in or not?

When you click on the link, you will find that the quality is bad but underneath the video is an option to "watch in high quality", sometimes it will let you do that and other times it won't. Either way, watch #21 get up in the endzone and the officials' handling of the situation.

I hope it is something that everyone can learn from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s9V7aRFLYc

1. Why are the officials standing 8 yards apart with the teams in between them while they figure out what happened?

2. Why are there 2 coaches all the way out in the middle of the field. They should be off the field and not closer than the 25 yard line, but they are in the middle of the field on the 2 yard line. That is approximately 58 yards away from where they should be. I hope there were 2 sideline warnings issued.

[The Cynic]

Originally Posted by LDUB

2. Why are there 2 coaches all the way out in the middle of the field. They should be off the field and not closer than the 25 yard line, but they are in the middle of the field on the 2 yard line. That is approximately 58 yards away from where they should be. I hope there were 2 sideline warnings issued.

No sideline warnings were issued. I will say this... the one thing that the video does is seem to speed up time. By this, I mean that the drama surrounding the situation made everything seem to last at least twice as long.

Keep in mind that this is a rivalry game that has seen the winner go to the playoffs each of the last 4 years while the loser has stayed home (eventhough it is week one game).

I know that doesn't mean much in the eyes of the officiating world, but as everyone sat and waited it felt like an eternity waiting for a call. As none was made, both coaches reacted like coaches do and wanted to take charge as no one on the field seemed to want to. I don't know of anyone who would sit quietly and watch this thing unfold the way it did. Sideline warning or no sideline warning. Besides, a penalty at that point wasn't going to make a difference. The game would be decided by the decision that everyone was waiting for.

[OverAndBack]

Is this an instance where, as a wing, you'd either cheat in a bit at the snap or come in hard to make sure you get a better view? I know you don't want to get caught too far in if they spring a trick play and the ball gets pitched back wide for some reason, but if it's obvious they're going up the middle and this is a key play, would it be acceptable to come in earlier and farther than you might normally as a wing on a goalline situation? EDIT: I see this has been covered, but not conclusively remedied. Some say yes, some say you don't want to get caught suckered if the ball goes wide. Both seem valid. I guess I'm going to squint and try to keep my eyes on that ball as best I can and maybe cheat in a bit, but not far enough that I can't get back.

Still, somebody's got to see it, you'd hope. If you see leather and see his knee down, there you go, call him down and be done with it. But you'd better be sure. This video is kind of inconclusive.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

As none was made, both coaches reacted like coaches do and wanted to take charge as no one on the field seemed to want to. I don't know of anyone who would sit quietly and watch this thing unfold the way it did. Sideline warning or no sideline warning. Besides, a penalty at that point wasn't going to make a difference. The game would be decided by the decision that everyone was waiting for.

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

I thought there were 30 seconds left in the game. How does that down decide the game if there are 30 seconds left?

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

Makes you feel in control.

Which is what most coaches seem to be all about anyway.

/gross generalization

[parepat]

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by parepat

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

[jjrye22]

OverAndBack:
I've seen quite a few sort distance plays from the sideline where there is no ways the LM or LJ (but fortunately usually only one per play) can not see the ball and ball carrier due to the surge of bodies.
I don't think pinching in a few yards in going to help anyways, so I would say stay on the sideline.

Personally - on the high res video I would lean towards the ball carrier being in the EZ. Really hard to see, but just as he is going down, it looks to me that he is at about the 1/2 yards line and falling forward.

[The Cynic]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

LDub...

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly. What if the officials weren't blowing the whistle at the end of plays and allowing players to be injured? Are the coaches suppose to stay in the coaches' box as well? (only a maximum of three of them, I know)

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

One thing you are not correct on in your assessment of the situation is your claim that the coaches were 58 yards from where they were supposed to be. I am sure you just forgot to use the Pythagorean theorem to figure out that the coaches were at most 36 yards from the coaches' box.

For what it is worth, I have done both jobs and have a tremendous amount of respect for officiating and the passion that many professionals hold toward the vocation, but please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold. Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold.

I believe that doing anything else would be considered an attempt at trying to influence the call of an official - Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (9-8-1 b)

[The Cynic]

Yep... you are right. Throw the flag. Just do me a favor, tonight, every time a coach yells, "he moved!" or "holding!"... throw the flag. Let me know how your night goes. Good luck getting games in the future.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

Yes, that would have happened. The officials talked and decided what happened. The same would have happened without the coaches on the field.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly.

What exactly did they not do properly? Ideally one would like the decision made in less time but that doesn't mean anything was not done properly.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Going out to the middle of the field and arguing = USC. Maybe even flagrant.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

The penalties wouldn't offset, both would be enforced.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

So I guess your team lost. Would you have been ok with declaring the game over at that point? I'm sure you wanted those 30 seconds to try to score.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold.

And running out on the field accomplishes what?

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

So you would be ok with the officials walking off the field with 30 seconds left as the game is over? I would think a coach that didn't suck would try to score and win instead of saying that the game was over.