No one saw it!

[parepat]

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by parepat

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

[jjrye22]

OverAndBack:
I've seen quite a few sort distance plays from the sideline where there is no ways the LM or LJ (but fortunately usually only one per play) can not see the ball and ball carrier due to the surge of bodies.
I don't think pinching in a few yards in going to help anyways, so I would say stay on the sideline.

Personally - on the high res video I would lean towards the ball carrier being in the EZ. Really hard to see, but just as he is going down, it looks to me that he is at about the 1/2 yards line and falling forward.

[The Cynic]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

LDub...

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly. What if the officials weren't blowing the whistle at the end of plays and allowing players to be injured? Are the coaches suppose to stay in the coaches' box as well? (only a maximum of three of them, I know)

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

One thing you are not correct on in your assessment of the situation is your claim that the coaches were 58 yards from where they were supposed to be. I am sure you just forgot to use the Pythagorean theorem to figure out that the coaches were at most 36 yards from the coaches' box.

For what it is worth, I have done both jobs and have a tremendous amount of respect for officiating and the passion that many professionals hold toward the vocation, but please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold. Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold.

I believe that doing anything else would be considered an attempt at trying to influence the call of an official - Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (9-8-1 b)

[The Cynic]

Yep... you are right. Throw the flag. Just do me a favor, tonight, every time a coach yells, "he moved!" or "holding!"... throw the flag. Let me know how your night goes. Good luck getting games in the future.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

Yes, that would have happened. The officials talked and decided what happened. The same would have happened without the coaches on the field.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly.

What exactly did they not do properly? Ideally one would like the decision made in less time but that doesn't mean anything was not done properly.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Going out to the middle of the field and arguing = USC. Maybe even flagrant.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

The penalties wouldn't offset, both would be enforced.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

So I guess your team lost. Would you have been ok with declaring the game over at that point? I'm sure you wanted those 30 seconds to try to score.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold.

And running out on the field accomplishes what?

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

So you would be ok with the officials walking off the field with 30 seconds left as the game is over? I would think a coach that didn't suck would try to score and win instead of saying that the game was over.

[The Cynic]

LDUB:

Where to even begin...

They say it is not fair to enter a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but hey, as you proved, I don't obey the rules.


First of all, my team and I received an apology from the covering official on the play. Therefore, I would say they didn't get it right. Beyond that, everyone who responded on this thread seems to agree that if the ball carrier ends up in the end zone with the ball and no one saw at least a knee down then it should have been ruled a good conversion. I was there. No one saw a knee down and no one said they did. Once again, it seems as though they didn't get it right.

You claim that the officials would have come to the same conclusion with or without the coaches on the field. Are you sure about that? Take a look at who is standing right next to the Referee when he makes the call… that's right... it is the coach from team B. What did he say? Is it not possible that he influenced the referee, since the referee wasn't huddling with his crew?

Dead ball multiple unsportmanlike conduct penalties would be marched off in both directions at the free kick line which would essentially mean that they would "offset". Before you hurt yourself typing, I know the difference in semantics, but the end result is "offset." Most people in the real word would know what I was saying without trying to play the role of the Philadelphia lawyer. Even the umpire in charge of marching off the penalties would agree with me and likely save himself the 30 yard trip back to where he began.

You use semantics in your next argument too. There is 30 sesonds left. We are down one point and have to kick off. What are the odds that we win that game? Less than 1% chance I would say. If we had gotten the call in our favor, what would our odds be then? Would those odds have increased by over 95%? I am quite sure. That is what I mean by "game over." {We tried the onside kick and didn't get it. And remarkably, we lost} If you don't agree with my logic, please don't go to Vegas and try and make a living. You won't make too much money trying to hit on 19 or 20 while playing blackjack.

Then there is the point that I suck as a coach. Maybe that's true. You are only as good as your last game (We won that one by one point). It’s open to interpretation. I am sure that the nine county/area coach of the year awards that our staff has won over the past five years would be no indication of our ability to coach...not to mention the fact that we have the three best records in the history of the school including an undefeated season last year.

To question the antics of the coaches given the situation is akin to asking what color the curtains were inside the house that burnt down.

Why don’t you step off the field for a year and into the coaches’ box. Remember, I have done your job, are you sure you can do mine?

Take your time working the math on the Pythagorean theorem. It can be real tricky.

[OverAndBack]

Mathews coach Jim Parry said he was told by the officials that no one in a striped shirt saw Jackson cross the goal line with the ball.

“It was tough for the officials, they didn’t see it, nobody saw it. My argument was if nobody saw it why does it go against us,” Parry said.

“They just said ‘We didn’t see it,’ so he doesn’t get the score.

“A whistle blew when our kid was standing in the end zone. They didn’t see it, it’s not their fault, I don’t know the ruling on it, but it was an unfortunate situation.”


That Jim Parry guy, he seemed like the reasonable sort right after the game.

[The Cynic]

If you really want to hear what was said to the reporters after the game there is an audio clip...

From the Warren Tribune website:

http://extras.tribtoday.com/football...dio/week01.asp

Again, Our players and coaches have utmost respect for officials and even the officials in this game. I do believe it was an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

If you will listen to the entire audio clip, I hope you agree that we tried quickly to put everything in perspective with our players.

The coach from the other team and I joke about the situation all the time. It's not the end of the world, but at the same time it was hard locker room to address that night. As I said before, I just hope people on this site learn form it, so that if something similar happens in the future, they will have the tools to make an informed desicion.

[daggo66]

Communication among the crew is paramount in any situation where there is doubt. I had a game several years ago. Team A was riding a 39 game losing streak. They scored late in the game (less than a minute) and were down by one. They decided to go for 2. The play was a quick short pass over the middle that was low. It clearly skipped before the diving receiver scooped it up. The BJ was screened out of the play. The U turned and saw it (as did I at R). He immediately signaled incomplete. The two wings who came in and were looking only at each other at this moment were about to signal something. I started shouting NO, NO, NO to the them. To my complete horror as they looked at each other, they nodded and signalled a TD. The crowd went wild thinking the streak was about to end. I had to break the news to the very unhappy coach. They did recover the ensuing onside kick, but were not able to score. The place was going nuts as we left the field. As luck would have it the school was locked and we had to wait to enter the locker room. We waited for an eternity. During this time a player from the losing team eventually came up to me. He identified hinself as that receiver. He told me that I was right and the ball did in fact hit the ground before he caught it. I thanked him for his honesty and told him that he had a great deal of class. I then asked him if he would mind announcing that to the 5,000 people still yelling at me! Years later I was working an adult flag game. I was downfield and ruled a no catch on a low pass. The receiver came up to me and said, "Do you remember me? I was that receiver in the high school game were you ruled a no catch." I told him that I did and he replied, "That's twice you were right. I've got to stay away from you!"

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

First of all, my team and I received an apology from the covering official on the play. Therefore, I would say they didn't get it right. Beyond that, everyone who responded on this thread seems to agree that if the ball carrier ends up in the end zone with the ball and no one saw at least a knee down then it should have been ruled a good conversion. I was there. No one saw a knee down and no one said they did. Once again, it seems as though they didn't get it right.

What is your point? I haven't discussed if it was a touchdown or not.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You claim that the officials would have come to the same conclusion with or without the coaches on the field. Are you sure about that? Take a look at who is standing right next to the Referee when he makes the call… that's right... it is the coach from team B. What did he say? Is it not possible that he influenced the referee, since the referee wasn't huddling with his crew?

All the more reason to not allow them on the field in the first place.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Dead ball multiple unsportmanlike conduct penalties would be marched off in both directions at the free kick line which would essentially mean that they would "offset". Before you hurt yourself typing, I know the difference in semantics, but the end result is "offset." Most people in the real word would know what I was saying without trying to play the role of the Philadelphia lawyer. Even the umpire in charge of marching off the penalties would agree with me and likely save himself the 30 yard trip back to where he began.

Actually we were talking aboout sideline warnings. Depending on how many times it had been called during the game the penalty could have been 0, 5, or 15 yards on each team.

And no, I'm not a Philadelphia Lawyer. Saying dead ball USC fouls offset is complety wrong. Some people will beleive that and then on a try they will have the peanlties offset instead of enforcing them both, one of which would be half the distance to the goal line instead of 15 yards.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You use semantics in your next argument too. There is 30 sesonds left. We are down one point and have to kick off. What are the odds that we win that game? Less than 1% chance I would say. If we had gotten the call in our favor, what would our odds be then? Would those odds have increased by over 95%? I am quite sure. That is what I mean by "game over." {We tried the onside kick and didn't get it. And remarkably, we lost} If you don't agree with my logic, please don't go to Vegas and try and make a living. You won't make too much money trying to hit on 19 or 20 while playing blackjack.

So the game wasn't over after the try. Your team still tried to win. Obviosly they were losing with not a lot of time left therefore their chances of winning were not very high.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Then there is the point that I suck as a coach. Maybe that's true. You are only as good as your last game (We won that one by one point). It’s open to interpretation. I am sure that the nine county/area coach of the year awards that our staff has won over the past five years would be no indication of our ability to coach...not to mention the fact that we have the three best records in the history of the school including an undefeated season last year.

Maybe you would have the 4 best records in the history of the school if you played the last 30 seconds of every game

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Why don’t you step off the field for a year and into the coaches’ box. Remember, I have done your job, are you sure you can do mine?

No thanks.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parepat

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

My God, what a clusterf**k.

I am a WH and I guarantee you that once the wings and umpire were looking at each other with a clueless look on their face, I would've been grabbing officials and having a conference away from the players, probably back at about the 10 yard line.

I've been grooming a crew member to be the WH in case I'm ever injured or cannot work on a Friday night. Like I told him last week, one thing you always have to give is at least the illusion that you are in charge and are in control. This guy stood there with his thumbs up his backside. I would've been grabbing officials, pulling them to the side, and having a conversation in private. I did that last week on a simple false start / encroachment that certainly didn't have the bearing this did on the game -- but with 4 flags on the field, you'd better talk and I don't talk with players in earshot.

Right or wrong, I also tell my wings to make a call in this situation immediately if the umpire can't help. Right or wrong, MAKE A CALL. The reality is, look at this play -- there's no way ANY of us can tell definitively if the runner got in or not. The camera is not straight down the goal line, and even if it was, it's the same look that the wings got, which was nada. Would there be a video on YouTube if the L simply got a spot and signaled "no good" right away?