No one saw it!

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

As none was made, both coaches reacted like coaches do and wanted to take charge as no one on the field seemed to want to. I don't know of anyone who would sit quietly and watch this thing unfold the way it did. Sideline warning or no sideline warning. Besides, a penalty at that point wasn't going to make a difference. The game would be decided by the decision that everyone was waiting for.

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

I thought there were 30 seconds left in the game. How does that down decide the game if there are 30 seconds left?

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

Makes you feel in control.

Which is what most coaches seem to be all about anyway.

/gross generalization

[parepat]

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by parepat

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

[jjrye22]

OverAndBack:
I've seen quite a few sort distance plays from the sideline where there is no ways the LM or LJ (but fortunately usually only one per play) can not see the ball and ball carrier due to the surge of bodies.
I don't think pinching in a few yards in going to help anyways, so I would say stay on the sideline.

Personally - on the high res video I would lean towards the ball carrier being in the EZ. Really hard to see, but just as he is going down, it looks to me that he is at about the 1/2 yards line and falling forward.

[The Cynic]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Who deals with the coaches if all 5 officials get together under any other situation (weird rule or something)? Are the coaches allowed 50 yards out on the field under that situation too?

Think about it, these guys were almost 58 yards away from where they should have been. The field is only 53 1/3 yards wide. They were farther from where they should have been than the field is wide. They weren't 2 steps out on the field. There is no way this isn't 2 sideline warnings, and there is no way it isn't a USC foul if a coach who is out there says anything bad to the officials.

LDub...

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly. What if the officials weren't blowing the whistle at the end of plays and allowing players to be injured? Are the coaches suppose to stay in the coaches' box as well? (only a maximum of three of them, I know)

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

One thing you are not correct on in your assessment of the situation is your claim that the coaches were 58 yards from where they were supposed to be. I am sure you just forgot to use the Pythagorean theorem to figure out that the coaches were at most 36 yards from the coaches' box.

For what it is worth, I have done both jobs and have a tremendous amount of respect for officiating and the passion that many professionals hold toward the vocation, but please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold. Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold.

I believe that doing anything else would be considered an attempt at trying to influence the call of an official - Unsportsmanlike Conduct. (9-8-1 b)

[The Cynic]

Yep... you are right. Throw the flag. Just do me a favor, tonight, every time a coach yells, "he moved!" or "holding!"... throw the flag. Let me know how your night goes. Good luck getting games in the future.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by The Cynic

You've got this thing nailed. Had those coaches who, to that point, have probably spent over 3000 hours preparing their teams for the season and that game in particular, stayed on the sideline and just let these officials, who obviously had great control over the situation, do their job, this situation would have ironed itself out.

Yes, that would have happened. The officials talked and decided what happened. The same would have happened without the coaches on the field.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

The fact is that BOTH coaches were on the field AFTER it was quite clear that the officials were not doing their jobs properly.

What exactly did they not do properly? Ideally one would like the decision made in less time but that doesn't mean anything was not done properly.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

And God forbid if one of the coaches said something bad during this situation, as you would have to prove who was in charge by tossing the yellow hanky in the air.

Going out to the middle of the field and arguing = USC. Maybe even flagrant.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Indeed, both coaches should have been flagged. Offsetting penalties. Move on.

The penalties wouldn't offset, both would be enforced.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

And sure this play didn't affect the outcome of the game, as there was 30 seconds left to play while neither team had any timeouts left. What the officials do never affects the outcome of the game. It is always what the coaches and players do; NEVER the officials. Just ask Norv Turner.

So I guess your team lost. Would you have been ok with declaring the game over at that point? I'm sure you wanted those 30 seconds to try to score.

Originally Posted by The Cynic

please don't try and tell me that both parties have equal parts invested in the outcome of getting this call right or wrong… and that as a coach, I am suppose to sit by passively and let this thing unfold.

And running out on the field accomplishes what?

Originally Posted by The Cynic

Once the call is made in this situation, the game is as over. I can’t wait for a conference, I can’t hope for an onside kick. At that point, the only chance to win that game is to have the official signal touchdown—something that both coaches realized and compelled them to enter the field of play much to your chagrin.

So you would be ok with the officials walking off the field with 30 seconds left as the game is over? I would think a coach that didn't suck would try to score and win instead of saying that the game was over.

[The Cynic]

LDUB:

Where to even begin...

They say it is not fair to enter a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but hey, as you proved, I don't obey the rules.


First of all, my team and I received an apology from the covering official on the play. Therefore, I would say they didn't get it right. Beyond that, everyone who responded on this thread seems to agree that if the ball carrier ends up in the end zone with the ball and no one saw at least a knee down then it should have been ruled a good conversion. I was there. No one saw a knee down and no one said they did. Once again, it seems as though they didn't get it right.

You claim that the officials would have come to the same conclusion with or without the coaches on the field. Are you sure about that? Take a look at who is standing right next to the Referee when he makes the call… that's right... it is the coach from team B. What did he say? Is it not possible that he influenced the referee, since the referee wasn't huddling with his crew?

Dead ball multiple unsportmanlike conduct penalties would be marched off in both directions at the free kick line which would essentially mean that they would "offset". Before you hurt yourself typing, I know the difference in semantics, but the end result is "offset." Most people in the real word would know what I was saying without trying to play the role of the Philadelphia lawyer. Even the umpire in charge of marching off the penalties would agree with me and likely save himself the 30 yard trip back to where he began.

You use semantics in your next argument too. There is 30 sesonds left. We are down one point and have to kick off. What are the odds that we win that game? Less than 1% chance I would say. If we had gotten the call in our favor, what would our odds be then? Would those odds have increased by over 95%? I am quite sure. That is what I mean by "game over." {We tried the onside kick and didn't get it. And remarkably, we lost} If you don't agree with my logic, please don't go to Vegas and try and make a living. You won't make too much money trying to hit on 19 or 20 while playing blackjack.

Then there is the point that I suck as a coach. Maybe that's true. You are only as good as your last game (We won that one by one point). It’s open to interpretation. I am sure that the nine county/area coach of the year awards that our staff has won over the past five years would be no indication of our ability to coach...not to mention the fact that we have the three best records in the history of the school including an undefeated season last year.

To question the antics of the coaches given the situation is akin to asking what color the curtains were inside the house that burnt down.

Why don’t you step off the field for a year and into the coaches’ box. Remember, I have done your job, are you sure you can do mine?

Take your time working the math on the Pythagorean theorem. It can be real tricky.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by parepat

Do any of you believe that the coaches actions on this play had any impact on the officials complete mismanagement of this play? Who exactly should have been dealing with the coaches, the linesman holding a phantom spot for no reason, the backjudge with his finger up his *ss, or the referee who chose not to talk to his crew. The coaches were the least of the problem on this fiasco.

My God, what a clusterf**k.

I am a WH and I guarantee you that once the wings and umpire were looking at each other with a clueless look on their face, I would've been grabbing officials and having a conference away from the players, probably back at about the 10 yard line.

I've been grooming a crew member to be the WH in case I'm ever injured or cannot work on a Friday night. Like I told him last week, one thing you always have to give is at least the illusion that you are in charge and are in control. This guy stood there with his thumbs up his backside. I would've been grabbing officials, pulling them to the side, and having a conversation in private. I did that last week on a simple false start / encroachment that certainly didn't have the bearing this did on the game -- but with 4 flags on the field, you'd better talk and I don't talk with players in earshot.

Right or wrong, I also tell my wings to make a call in this situation immediately if the umpire can't help. Right or wrong, MAKE A CALL. The reality is, look at this play -- there's no way ANY of us can tell definitively if the runner got in or not. The camera is not straight down the goal line, and even if it was, it's the same look that the wings got, which was nada. Would there be a video on YouTube if the L simply got a spot and signaled "no good" right away?

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So what exactly is being over 50 yards from where you are supposed to be do?

I thought there were 30 seconds left in the game. How does that down decide the game if there are 30 seconds left?

You are kidding right? You can't get the play call ruling right but you are going to get the sideline warning on this? Seems like a recipe for disaster imo.

I don't do football, but I know that if I kick a call or we as a crew miss a rule on the basketball floor and the coach comes to the end of the bench to chew on me/us I will give him *some* latitude and I sure as heck aint gonna hit with a "coaches box" warning or tech unless he goes bananas and shows us up... different story and one I have to address.

Case in point... I had a game where I am the referee and one of my umpires hits his whistle once the ball is live after a timeout and sprints over to me frantically saying he has a technical foul as he has 6 players on the court. I immediately look and I only see 5 of his players. The coach starts to protest and I tell him to be calm for a minute... I take the co-official in question far away from the benches and instruct my other official to watch the players. We discuss it and I say I only counted 5. He insists that one ran off the sidelines as he ran over to me. I can't convince him there were not 6 and I don't know for sure that one did not leave so we assess the Technical foul as he made the call. I tell him to go administer the the free throws while I deal with the coach. Coach is waaaaaaaay not happy and he vents. Because I think he may be right I let him have at me allowing some things to be said that would have gotten him a "T" right away under different circumstances but he needs to vent and he is not in his coaches box. If I whack him here, I am gonna have to toss him and make a bad sitch worse. However, he does not stop there and his clip board suddenly slams into the floor due to his thrusting it that direction... now we have to give him a "T" and he knows it. Game ended without any more probs. Two weeks later I see him and he compliments my handling of the situation and completely agreed with the "T" I assessed directly to him.

Pouring salt in coaches wounds is not smart. Rule Book officiating sometimes accomplishes salt in the wound and you need to use people skills at this point and use the book as a guideline.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by BBall_Junkie

You are kidding right? You can't get the play call ruling right but you are going to get the sideline warning on this? Seems like a recipe for disaster imo.

I don't do football, but I know that if I kick a call or we as a crew miss a rule on the basketball floor and the coach comes to the end of the bench to chew on me/us I will give him *some* latitude and I sure as heck aint gonna hit with a "coaches box" warning or tech unless he goes bananas and shows us up... different story and one I have to address.

There is a difference between being 3 feet out of the box in basketball and coming out to the middle of the field on the goal line in football. Also, a sideline warning has no penalty for the first one. Coming out to the middle of the field isn't acceptable.

Your whole thing about maybe getting the call wrong and allowing someone latitude doesn't even apply to this situation as there were coaches from both teams all the way out there while the officials were discussing things before a call had even been made.

And yes, it should be a USC foul if a coach is out there arguing. In basketball if you want to give the coach latitude that is fine. He is in the box and you let him say a few bad things, or maybe he is out of the box but you let it go. But leaving the box by 30 feet (I think that distance in BB is equitable to how far away these guys were from the team area in the FB game) and arguing...I don't see how that is not a technical foul.

[The Cynic]

We had an interesting game this week. We were down 17 points with 30 seconds left to go. I did what Ldub said. I used all 3 timeouts and ran our two minute offense. We still lost. I will try again next week.

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally Posted by LDUB

There is a difference between being 3 feet out of the box in basketball and coming out to the middle of the field on the goal line in football. Also, a sideline warning has no penalty for the first one. Coming out to the middle of the field isn't acceptable.

Your whole thing about maybe getting the call wrong and allowing someone latitude doesn't even apply to this situation as there were coaches from both teams all the way out there while the officials were discussing things before a call had even been made.

And yes, it should be a USC foul if a coach is out there arguing. In basketball if you want to give the coach latitude that is fine. He is in the box and you let him say a few bad things, or maybe he is out of the box but you let it go. But leaving the box by 30 feet (I think that distance in BB is equitable to how far away these guys were from the team area in the FB game) and arguing...I don't see how that is not a technical foul.

If you want to get the small stuff while screwing up the big stuff have at it and good luck. You seem to think that is what needs to be picked up here so I will not try to convince you otherwise.