Foul by B

[Suudy]

NFHS rule 10-4-7 has me thinking. It says:

Originally Posted by NFHS 10-4-7

The basic spot is the goal line for fouls by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball accross its own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the ball becomes dead.

a) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 is tackled in the EZ.

b) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out of bounds at the A3.

c) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out the back of the EZ.

All these plays have A responsible for the ball crossing the EZ, and have loose balls. In a) and c), it is 1st and 15 from the A5, no? But b) confuses me a little. The rules says the basic spot is the goal line, "regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead." Does this mean 1st and 15 from the A5, even though the ball became dead at the 3 (rather than 1st and 12 from the A8)?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Suudy

a) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 is tackled in the EZ.

b) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out of bounds at the A3.

c) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out the back of the EZ.

CANADIAN RULING:

1. 15y + AFD applied from PLS. A 1D/10 @ A-25.
2. 15y + AFD applied from PLS. A 1D/10 @ A-25.
3. 15y + AFD applied from PLS. A 1D/10 @ A-25.

[BoBo]

In B you will need to enforce from the spot where the run ended i believe. Which in this case the goal line will be used as that spot.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Suudy...Rule 10-4-7 only applies to running plays--not loose ball plays. While not explicitly stated, that's implicit in its use of the words "related run" in the wording. In your plays, the only running play is (a) since A is tackled in the end zone. Both (b) and (c) are loose ball plays since the QB fumbled behind the neutral zone.

Therefore, the new 10-4-7 does indeed govern play (a). The result will be A's ball, 1-15 from A's 5.

Plays (b) and (c) are governed by standard loose ball play (previous spot) enforcement. They will both result in A's ball, 1-5 from A's 15.

By the way, there is a 2008 editorial revision being submitted for 10-4-7 to more explicitly state that it is only for running plays.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

In your plays, the only running play is (a) since A is tackled in the end zone. Both (b) and (c) are loose ball plays since the QB fumbled behind the neutral zone.

Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

Originally Posted by Bob M.

By the way, there is a 2008 editorial revision being submitted for 10-4-7 to more explicitly state that it is only for running plays.

Ok, the part the threw me was "and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the ball becomes dead."

So I was trying to think of a play with a loose ball where the ball becomes dead in advance of the goal line. I guess the only way this happens is with a COP?

How about this case:

1st and 10 from the B10. A8 throws an interception to B5. B5 catches the ball at the B1 and his momentum carries him into the EZ. In the EZ, A80 grabs and pulls B5's facemask and:

a) B5 is tackled in the EZ,
b) B5 fumbles and the ball rolls out at the B3,
c) B5 fumbles and the ball rolls out the back of the EZ.

Of course this doesn't seem to apply either, since I think the basic spot is the B1, not the goal line. B is not responsible for "for forcing the ball accross its own goal line" so 10-4-7 doesn't apply.

Or this case:

1st and 10 from the B10. A8 throws an interception to B5. B5 catches the ball at the B5. A80 grabs and pulls B5's facemask and B5 fumbles and the ball rolls backwards and out the side of the EZ.

Is the basic spot the goal line in this case? But of course the spot of the foul is advance of the goal line, so 1st and 10 for B at the B20.

I can't think of an example where a loose ball that becomes dead in advance of the goal line where 10-4-7 would apply.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Suudy

...I can't think of an example where a loose ball that becomes dead in advance of the goal line where 10-4-7 would apply.

REPLY: Try this one...A's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 5. Trying to elude tacklers, he circles back into his endzone (force is his carry). A3 in attempting to tackle him grabs his face mask. B2 fumbles and the ball rolls out into the field of play where either A4 or B4 recover at B's 2.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

I don't think that your enforcements are right here. Aren't the enforcement spots in both of these scenarios the End of A's Run? In both scenarios the "run" ends at the A25.

Don't we have 2nd & 30 for A @ A30, or did I miss something?