Foul by B

[Suudy]

NFHS rule 10-4-7 has me thinking. It says:

Originally Posted by NFHS 10-4-7

The basic spot is the goal line for fouls by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball accross its own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the ball becomes dead.

a) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 is tackled in the EZ.

b) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out of bounds at the A3.

c) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out the back of the EZ.

All these plays have A responsible for the ball crossing the EZ, and have loose balls. In a) and c), it is 1st and 15 from the A5, no? But b) confuses me a little. The rules says the basic spot is the goal line, "regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead." Does this mean 1st and 15 from the A5, even though the ball became dead at the 3 (rather than 1st and 12 from the A8)?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Suudy

a) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 is tackled in the EZ.

b) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out of bounds at the A3.

c) 1st and 10 from the A10. A8 drops back to pass and scrambles into the EZ where B51 grasps, but does not pull, A8's facemask. A8 fumbles and the ball rolls out the back of the EZ.

CANADIAN RULING:

1. 15y + AFD applied from PLS. A 1D/10 @ A-25.
2. 15y + AFD applied from PLS. A 1D/10 @ A-25.
3. 15y + AFD applied from PLS. A 1D/10 @ A-25.

[BoBo]

In B you will need to enforce from the spot where the run ended i believe. Which in this case the goal line will be used as that spot.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Suudy...Rule 10-4-7 only applies to running plays--not loose ball plays. While not explicitly stated, that's implicit in its use of the words "related run" in the wording. In your plays, the only running play is (a) since A is tackled in the end zone. Both (b) and (c) are loose ball plays since the QB fumbled behind the neutral zone.

Therefore, the new 10-4-7 does indeed govern play (a). The result will be A's ball, 1-15 from A's 5.

Plays (b) and (c) are governed by standard loose ball play (previous spot) enforcement. They will both result in A's ball, 1-5 from A's 15.

By the way, there is a 2008 editorial revision being submitted for 10-4-7 to more explicitly state that it is only for running plays.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

In your plays, the only running play is (a) since A is tackled in the end zone. Both (b) and (c) are loose ball plays since the QB fumbled behind the neutral zone.

Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

Originally Posted by Bob M.

By the way, there is a 2008 editorial revision being submitted for 10-4-7 to more explicitly state that it is only for running plays.

Ok, the part the threw me was "and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the ball becomes dead."

So I was trying to think of a play with a loose ball where the ball becomes dead in advance of the goal line. I guess the only way this happens is with a COP?

How about this case:

1st and 10 from the B10. A8 throws an interception to B5. B5 catches the ball at the B1 and his momentum carries him into the EZ. In the EZ, A80 grabs and pulls B5's facemask and:

a) B5 is tackled in the EZ,
b) B5 fumbles and the ball rolls out at the B3,
c) B5 fumbles and the ball rolls out the back of the EZ.

Of course this doesn't seem to apply either, since I think the basic spot is the B1, not the goal line. B is not responsible for "for forcing the ball accross its own goal line" so 10-4-7 doesn't apply.

Or this case:

1st and 10 from the B10. A8 throws an interception to B5. B5 catches the ball at the B5. A80 grabs and pulls B5's facemask and B5 fumbles and the ball rolls backwards and out the side of the EZ.

Is the basic spot the goal line in this case? But of course the spot of the foul is advance of the goal line, so 1st and 10 for B at the B20.

I can't think of an example where a loose ball that becomes dead in advance of the goal line where 10-4-7 would apply.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Suudy

...I can't think of an example where a loose ball that becomes dead in advance of the goal line where 10-4-7 would apply.

REPLY: Try this one...A's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 5. Trying to elude tacklers, he circles back into his endzone (force is his carry). A3 in attempting to tackle him grabs his face mask. B2 fumbles and the ball rolls out into the field of play where either A4 or B4 recover at B's 2.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Try this one...A's pass is intercepted by B2 at B's 5. Trying to elude tacklers, he circles back into his endzone (force is his carry). A3 in attempting to tackle him grabs his face mask. B2 fumbles and the ball rolls out into the field of play where either A4 or B4 recover at B's 2.

So we have 1st and 10 from the B15? Not 1st and 10 from the B17?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Suudy

So we have 1st and 10 from the B15? Not 1st and 10 from the B17?

REPLY: Correct. This is one where 10-4-7 applies. The enforcement would have been the same had he been tackled in the endzone without a fumble.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

The enforcement would have been the same had he been tackled in the endzone without a fumble.

Bob, could you please explain why this is? It seems that rule 10-4-7 applies only if a loose ball occurs after the related run ends. Am I just misreading the rule?

Thanks!

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Bob, could you please explain why this is? It seems that rule 10-4-7 applies only if a loose ball occurs after the related run ends. Am I just misreading the rule?

Thanks!

REPLY: Welpe...I wasn't meaning to imply that 10-4-7 governs the play when there's no fumble, only that the result would be the same, i.e. enforcement from the offensive team's goal line. I don't have my rule book with me today (I know...a sin) but the governing rule is a Special Enforcement (was 10-5-2 in 2006) that says: "The enforcement spot for any foul by the defense is the goal line when the run ends in the end zone and would result in a safety."

[Welpe]

Thank you for the reply, Bob. I understand now what you're saying. Incidently, I do have my books with me today since I have a game this afternoon and I just read about that special enforcementon my break. The light bulb went off that this is exactly what you were talking about.

Thanks again, I appreciate the amount of knowledge you have to share with everybody and the time you take to do so!

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

I don't think that your enforcements are right here. Aren't the enforcement spots in both of these scenarios the End of A's Run? In both scenarios the "run" ends at the A25.

Don't we have 2nd & 30 for A @ A30, or did I miss something?

[DJ_NV]

Suudy's enforcements are correct in NF. In a) this is a running play so the end of the run is where A is tackled (the A25). Tack on 15 yards for the FM and repeat the down and you're back to where you started 2/20 @ A-40.

In b) this is loose-ball play, because we have a fumble (doesn't have to be a fumble, it could be any type of loose ball except an illegal forward passe.g. fumble, back. pass, any kick--legal or illegal--or a legal forward pass).

so therefore the BS is the previous spot, enforce 15 from the PS and it's 2/5 @ B-45.

Remember that before a COP, any runs (1 run or 50 runs) as long as any and all are followed by a loose ball (except an illegal FP) then all of the runs get rolled up into one and only one loose-ball play. Here is the key: The run has to end behind the NZ. Always, always, always... in order for this to be considered loose-ball play.

You could even have a run beyond the LOS, a fumble beyond the LOS, then have A recover and run the ball back behind the LOS and fumble it there and it's still loose-ball play because you had a run the ended behind the NZ before a COP. All of that nonsense gets wrapped up into one crazy loose-ball play.

So you ask yourself, why don't offensive players deliberately pass the ball backward behind the NZ if B fouls for sure, i.e. a quarterback getting tackled by the face mask on a sack? Seems to make sense, they get "free" penalty yardage as opposed to if he got tackled in possession of the ball. Realistically, very few coaches or players if any will have their wits about them in the situation to know to do this, plus the risk of doing so strategically, etc... In other words, probably not going to be the best decision from a player/coach standpoint especially when they're going to get the down over.

So then you ask yourself, why doesn't the Fed change the rule so that this isn't even an option? The NCAA has this. The basic spot for a running-play that ends behind the LOS is the previous spot. (Runs that end beyond the NZ and runs that end after a COP are still enforced from the EOR). With this enforcement, the defense doesn't get 'free' yardage because of their foul (sack for a 20 yd. loss even with a 5 yard FM is still a net loss of 15 yard for A even with a repeat of the down)



The reason the Fed will not change this rule is that they feel that the benefits of not having an exception to penalty enforcement and therefore giving away occasional 'free' yardage to B greatly outweigh the potential drawbacks of incorrectly enforcing fouls and having yet another 'exception'.

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by Suudy
Doh. It was late, I wasn't thinking correctly. Of course b) and c) are loose ball plays. We discussed this before when talking about how a QB can "fix" a sack by fumbling when tackled by the facemask.

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

In a), it is 2nd and 20 from the A40. In b) it is 2nd and 5 from the B45. Right?

Originally Posted by refbuz

I don't think that your enforcements are right here. Aren't the enforcement spots in both of these scenarios the End of A's Run? In both scenarios the "run" ends at the A25.

Don't we have 2nd & 30 for A @ A30, or did I miss something?

You're right, enforcement spot for both is A25. Suudy is calling a 15 yarder on the FM for "pulling" so it would be 2nd and 20.

In sitch B, Suudy is mistaken a loose ball for a loose ball play.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Suudy

For example, 2nd and 20 from the A40. A8 takes the snap, and under heavy pressure scrambles backwards. At the A25, B51 grabs and pulls A8's facemask. a) A8 is tackled at the A25, b) A8 fumbles and B61 recovers at the A23.

Originally Posted by CO ump

In sitch B, Suudy is mistaken a loose ball for a loose ball play.

Can you clarify? Why isn't sit b) a loose ball play?