foul at end of half

[yankeesfan]

i got this off of the nfhs website. is this correct?

SITUATION 5: During the last timed down of (a) the second quarter or (b) the fourth quarter, B1 commits a live-ball foul on a play in which A scores a touchdown. Can these fouls be carried over to a subsequent period? RULING: No, the foul in (a) cannot carry to the second half, and the foul in (b) cannot be carried to the overtime or tie-breaking procedure. If the fouls are enforced, they would be administered as an untimed down as an extension of (a) the second quarter or (b) the fourth quarter. (3-3-3a; 8-2-2)

[Kirby]

Yes, that is correct. If these take place in my games, I will give the "untimed down kickoff" option to the captain last and do everything I can to not have this occur as this could result in mass chaos.

[ljudge]

They could have done better at writing this up. I asked our state rules interpreter at our annual state rules meeting this very question tonight. (I hadn't seen the case book yet) I, along with others, thought he was screwing the explanation up. It's obvious that after the 4th quarter you can't enforce on the KO because there simply isn't one. BUT the succeding KO after the 2nd quarter is the start of the 3rd quarter, which is what the rule clearly states.

But, then again you can't end a half on an accepted live-ball player foul so I'm guessing that's why you can't carry over from the 2nd to the 3rd. It would have made it more clear if they put that under 8-2 to drive the point home.

[yankeesfan]

what i cant understand is if you have a live ball penalty on the try and there is no time left in the half then you enforce that in the 3rd quarter kickoff. i cant understand why the penalty on the touchdown cant be enforced in the 3rd quarter.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ljudge

They could have done better at writing this up. I asked our state rules interpreter at our annual state rules meeting this very question tonight. (I hadn't seen the case book yet) I, along with others, thought he was screwing the explanation up. It's obvious that after the 4th quarter you can't enforce on the KO because there simply isn't one. BUT the succeding KO after the 2nd quarter is the start of the 3rd quarter, which is what the rule clearly states.

But, then again you can't end a half on an accepted live-ball player foul so I'm guessing that's why you can't carry over from the 2nd to the 3rd. It would have made it more clear if they put that under 8-2 to drive the point home.

Another item that may factor in is that you have no way of knowing if the team that scored will in fact be kicking off to start the second half.

[MadCityRef]

At my meeting last night we were talking about this situation. The code needs to be tightened to allow enforcement. A PF or even a flagrant foul shouldn't be penalized just a yard-and-a-half.

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by ljudge

But, then again you can't end a half on an accepted live-ball player foul so I'm guessing that's why you can't carry over from the 2nd to the 3rd. It would have made it more clear if they put that under 8-2 to drive the point home.

Wow, I'm quoting myself. I just thought about this some more. Actually, you can't end a PERIOD on an accepted live-ball player foul (forget the half) so then I ask then if you can't carry over to the 3rd from the 2nd, then why are you allowed to carry over to the 2nd (from the 1st) or 4th (from the 3rd). This is inconsistent at best. Unless I'm still missing something.

And, even if you don't know who's kicking off who cares? You can still penalize the offending team.

I'm guessing we'll see an edit next year.

[yankeesfan]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Another item that may factor in is that you have no way of knowing if the team that scored will in fact be kicking off to start the second half.

it doesnt matter, you can still penalize the offending team.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

it doesnt matter, you can still penalize the offending team.

No, you can't by rule. There is no carryover to the next half or OT.

I didn't participate in the rule change. I'm just speculating as to why there is no carryover.

[yankeesfan]

Originally Posted by waltjp

No, you can't by rule. There is no carryover to the next half or OT.

I didn't participate in the rule change. I'm just speculating as to why there is no carryover.

only a deadball foul can be carried over to the next half or ot? correct?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

i got this off of the nfhs website. is this correct?

SITUATION 5: During the last timed down of (a) the second quarter or (b) the fourth quarter, B1 commits a live-ball foul on a play in which A scores a touchdown. Can these fouls be carried over to a subsequent period?

You'll like this one:

CANADIAN RULING:

It depends. If the foul is a minor foul, such as Team B holding or offside, then A has to decline the foul to accept the score. If the foul is either UR or RP, then team A keeps the score, and can apply the 15 yards (or 25 for RP) anyway they want:

1. in the 2nd or 4th quarter applied on the convert attempt
   • half the distance to the 2.5
2. in the 2nd or 4th quarter applied on an induced kick-off
   • this KO didn't exist until A chose to give it life by applying the foul on the KO
   • this is cool because if A ties the game with the PAT, then a rouge off of the KO will win the game; it is cool if A is down by 9, and score a 2pt PAT to be down by 1: scoring a rouge off of the KO sends the game to OT
3. in the case of the 2Q foul, A can choose to apply in the 3Q
4. in the case of the 4Q foul, A can choose to apply in OT, if warranted

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

only a deadball foul can be carried over to the next half or ot? correct?

No, a live-ball unsportsmanlike or non-player foul may also be carried over.

e.g. A substitute comes on to the field during the last play of the 1st half and doesn't influence the play. That 5-yard penalty for a non-player illegal substitution foul can be carried over to the 2nd half kickoff.

e.g. #2 - A player curses a player of the other team on the last play of the half. The 15-yard penalty may be administered in the 2nd half.

And, in both examples this may carry over to the O/T.

[Warrenkicker]

I also agree that there is no option to take the live-ball penalty from the 4th quarter and assess it in overtime. As for the penalty at the end of the second quarter I have a thought as to why we can't take that into the third quarter. The penalty is allowed to be enforced on the succeeding kickoff. There is a kickoff, by rule, to begin the third quarter so that kickoff is not a result of any action at the end of the second quarter thus it is not the succeeding kickoff. It may be the next play to happen but it is not a result of the previous play. Just my guess as to why we can't carry that one over.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Yes, that is correct. If these take place in my games, I will give the "untimed down kickoff" option to the captain last and do everything I can to not have this occur as this could result in mass chaos.

More like mass stupidity/futility. Why should the non-offending side in either case want one down after they scored a TD in Fed? Surely the penalized team will have them kick off, and there's no way K can score in Fed without R's cooperation. A kickoff can't score a goal, and if R puts all their players far out of the way, K can't advance the ball if they recover in the field of play, and the kickoff is dead if it breaks the plane of the goal line, right? Or did Fed change any of that?

Robert

[yankeesfan]

how about penalties at the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters, if the penalties are accepted on the kickoff will there be an untimed down or will the kickoff start either the 2nd or 4th quarters?