foul at end of half

[yankeesfan]

i got this off of the nfhs website. is this correct?

SITUATION 5: During the last timed down of (a) the second quarter or (b) the fourth quarter, B1 commits a live-ball foul on a play in which A scores a touchdown. Can these fouls be carried over to a subsequent period? RULING: No, the foul in (a) cannot carry to the second half, and the foul in (b) cannot be carried to the overtime or tie-breaking procedure. If the fouls are enforced, they would be administered as an untimed down as an extension of (a) the second quarter or (b) the fourth quarter. (3-3-3a; 8-2-2)

[Kirby]

Yes, that is correct. If these take place in my games, I will give the "untimed down kickoff" option to the captain last and do everything I can to not have this occur as this could result in mass chaos.

[ljudge]

They could have done better at writing this up. I asked our state rules interpreter at our annual state rules meeting this very question tonight. (I hadn't seen the case book yet) I, along with others, thought he was screwing the explanation up. It's obvious that after the 4th quarter you can't enforce on the KO because there simply isn't one. BUT the succeding KO after the 2nd quarter is the start of the 3rd quarter, which is what the rule clearly states.

But, then again you can't end a half on an accepted live-ball player foul so I'm guessing that's why you can't carry over from the 2nd to the 3rd. It would have made it more clear if they put that under 8-2 to drive the point home.

[yankeesfan]

what i cant understand is if you have a live ball penalty on the try and there is no time left in the half then you enforce that in the 3rd quarter kickoff. i cant understand why the penalty on the touchdown cant be enforced in the 3rd quarter.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by ljudge

They could have done better at writing this up. I asked our state rules interpreter at our annual state rules meeting this very question tonight. (I hadn't seen the case book yet) I, along with others, thought he was screwing the explanation up. It's obvious that after the 4th quarter you can't enforce on the KO because there simply isn't one. BUT the succeding KO after the 2nd quarter is the start of the 3rd quarter, which is what the rule clearly states.

But, then again you can't end a half on an accepted live-ball player foul so I'm guessing that's why you can't carry over from the 2nd to the 3rd. It would have made it more clear if they put that under 8-2 to drive the point home.

Another item that may factor in is that you have no way of knowing if the team that scored will in fact be kicking off to start the second half.

[MadCityRef]

At my meeting last night we were talking about this situation. The code needs to be tightened to allow enforcement. A PF or even a flagrant foul shouldn't be penalized just a yard-and-a-half.

[yankeesfan]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Another item that may factor in is that you have no way of knowing if the team that scored will in fact be kicking off to start the second half.

it doesnt matter, you can still penalize the offending team.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by yankeesfan

it doesnt matter, you can still penalize the offending team.

No, you can't by rule. There is no carryover to the next half or OT.

I didn't participate in the rule change. I'm just speculating as to why there is no carryover.

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by ljudge

But, then again you can't end a half on an accepted live-ball player foul so I'm guessing that's why you can't carry over from the 2nd to the 3rd. It would have made it more clear if they put that under 8-2 to drive the point home.

Wow, I'm quoting myself. I just thought about this some more. Actually, you can't end a PERIOD on an accepted live-ball player foul (forget the half) so then I ask then if you can't carry over to the 3rd from the 2nd, then why are you allowed to carry over to the 2nd (from the 1st) or 4th (from the 3rd). This is inconsistent at best. Unless I'm still missing something.

And, even if you don't know who's kicking off who cares? You can still penalize the offending team.

I'm guessing we'll see an edit next year.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Yes, that is correct. If these take place in my games, I will give the "untimed down kickoff" option to the captain last and do everything I can to not have this occur as this could result in mass chaos.

More like mass stupidity/futility. Why should the non-offending side in either case want one down after they scored a TD in Fed? Surely the penalized team will have them kick off, and there's no way K can score in Fed without R's cooperation. A kickoff can't score a goal, and if R puts all their players far out of the way, K can't advance the ball if they recover in the field of play, and the kickoff is dead if it breaks the plane of the goal line, right? Or did Fed change any of that?

Robert

[yankeesfan]

how about penalties at the end of the 1st and 3rd quarters, if the penalties are accepted on the kickoff will there be an untimed down or will the kickoff start either the 2nd or 4th quarters?

[KWH]

The key to this discussion is "ONLY" live ball fouls have the opportunity for "ensuing kickoff enforcment"
All dead ball fouls are enforced on the succeeding spot (same as last year) and do not have the opportunity to be enforced on the "ensuing kickoff"

Here is my understanding of the 2007 8-2-2 scenarios and ruling:

If a live ball foul by B occurs on a TD and A elects to take the foul on the ensuing kickoff. Then, on the successful 2-point try a foul by B occurs the captain must chooses (10-2-4) which live ball foul will be enforced. If this scenario occurs with time remaining on the clock (in any period) we have no confusion.
However, if this scenario were to occur on the last play of any period the enforcement procedure will depend on which penalty the captain of A chooses. So;
If the captain chooses to have the penalty for the foul during the try enforced, the penalty is enforced on the "succeeding spot", which, if the foul occurred at the:
A)End of the 1st period, enforce on the succeeding spot which is kickoff to start the 2nd period. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4
B)End of the 2nd period, enforce on the succeeding spot which is the second half kickoff. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4
C) End of the 3rd period, enforce on the succeeding spot which is the kickoff to start the 4th period. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4
D) End of the 4th period, enforce on the succeeding spot which is the start of overtime. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4 AND, if overtime is not required the Game is over - no enforcment.

If however, in the above scenario the captain of A elects to have the penalty for the foul which occurred during the TD enforced:
A) If the foul occurs with time remaining on the clock in any period the penalty is enforced on the ensuing kickoff
B) If the penalty occurs during a TD when time expires during ANY period, the period 1, 2, 3 or 4 must (3-3-3a) be extended for an "untimed kickoff"

Consider Play 1:
A scores a TD on the last play of the 4th period to close the margin to B35 - A 30. During the TD, B commits a live ball facemask foul.
The captain of A elects to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff"
RULING: Because the captain elected to have the penalty enforced on the ensuing kickoff, the period must be extended for an untimed kickoff after the completion of the try. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4

Consider Play 2:
A scores a TD on the last play of the 4th period to tie the score B35 - A 35. During the TD, B commits a live ball facemask foul.
The captain of A elects to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff". The 2-point try is successful making the score A37 - B35
RULING: Because the captain elected to have the penalty enforced on the ensuing kickoff, the period must be extended for an untimed kickoff after the completion of the try. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4

Consider Play 3:
A scores a TD on the last play of the 4th period to make the score B35 - A 33. During the TD, B commits a live ball facemask foul.
The captain of A elects to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff". The 2-point try is successful making the score A35 - B35, however Team B is flagged for live ball DPI during the successful try.
RULING: The capatin of A must choose:
A) If the captain elects to have the penalty for the foul during the TD enforced on the ensuing kickoff, the period must be extended for an untimed kickoff after the try. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4
B) If, however, the captain of A elects to have the penalty for the foul that occurred during the try enforced on the succeeding spot, the overtime will begin with a penalty enforced against B. (8-3-5b)

2007 Football - A year to remember!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by KWH

Consider Play 1:
A scores a TD on the last play of the 4th period to close the margin to B35 - A 30. During the TD, B commits a live ball facemask foul.
The captain of A elects to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff"
RULING: Because the captain elected to have the penalty enforced on the ensuing kickoff, the period must be extended for an untimed kickoff after the completion of the try. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4

This is consistent with the 2007 Canadian rulings.

Originally Posted by KWH

Consider Play 2:
A scores a TD on the last play of the 4th period to tie the score B35 - A 35. During the TD, B commits a live ball facemask foul.
The captain of A elects to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff". The 2-point try is successful making the score A37 - B35
RULING: Because the captain elected to have the penalty enforced on the ensuing kickoff, the period must be extended for an untimed kickoff after the completion of the try. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4

This is consistent with the 2007 Canadian rulings.

Originally Posted by KWH

Consider Play 3:
A scores a TD on the last play of the 4th period to make the score B35 - A 33. During the TD, B commits a live ball facemask foul.
The captain of A elects to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff". The 2-point try is successful making the score A35 - B35, however Team B is flagged for live ball DPI during the successful try.
RULING: The capatin of A must choose:
A) If the captain elects to have the penalty for the foul during the TD enforced on the ensuing kickoff, the period must be extended for an untimed kickoff after the try. 3-3-3a, 8-2-2, 8-3-5b, 10-2-4
B) If, however, the captain of A elects to have the penalty for the foul that occurred during the try enforced on the succeeding spot, the overtime will begin with a penalty enforced against B. (8-3-5b)

CANADIAN RULING: The DPI foul is applied on the KO along with the penalty for face mask foul. Team A would likely score a rouge to win the game.

[andy1033]

If at the end of a period there is a foul on a field goal try and the field goal is good. and the peanlty is accepted the period is not extended. This is a timed down. So why is this ?

[KWH]

Originally Posted by andy1033

If at the end of a period there is a foul on a field goal try and the field goal is good. and the peanlty is accepted the period is not extended. This is a timed down. So why is this ?

Andy-
Let me take a stab at clarifying this for you.

Because...
8-4-3
If during a successful field goal, a foul by R occurs, K is given the choice of:
a) Accepting the penalty and replaying the down following enforcement; or
b) Accepting the result of the play and enforcement of the penalty from the succeeding spot.
and...
3-3-4a
A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if during the last timed down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a) When the defense fouls during a successful try/field goal and the offended team accepts the result of the play with enforcment of the penalty from the succeeding spot.

So...
If this foul occurs as time expires during any period and the offended captain chooses option "a" the period is extended for an untimed down as per rule 3-3-3a
Likewise...
If this foul occurs as time expires during any period and the offended captain chooses option "b" we enforce the penalty fromthe succeeding spotas per rule 3-3-4a

Furthermore...
If during a successful try, a foul by R occurs, K is given the choice of:
a) Accepting the penalty and replaying the down following enforcement; or
b) Accepting the result of the play and enforcement of the penalty from the succeeding spot.

So...
If this foul occurs during a try with no time remaining in any period and the offended captain chooses option "a" the period is extended for an untimed down as per rule 3-3-3a
Likewise...
If this foul occurs during a try with no time remaining in any period and the offended captain chooses option "b," the penalty is enforced from the succeeding spotas per rule 3-3-4a

Now for the new rule...
IF during a touchdown scoring play in which there is no change of possession, a foul by the opponents occurs, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have the penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the foul enforced on the ensuing kickoff.

So...
If the offended captain chooses to have the penalty enforced on the try we follow succeeding spot enforcment procedures.
If, however the offended captain chooses to have the penalty enforced on the "ensuing kickoff" we shall extend the period for an untimed kickoff.

I hope this helps...