Man in motion

[MJT]

Originally Posted by ljudge

Now say that same guy who legally goes in motion and stops for less than one second and the ball is snapped. It's NOT a foul for illegal shift. He's considered by interpretation to still be in motion. That was published about 5 years ago.

I disagree with you on the above statement. 2-39 "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

From the case book.
7.2.6 Situation B: Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped.
Ruling: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-38)

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.
Comment: If the quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a shift and not motion. (2-38; 7-2-6)

[ljudge]

MJT:

Both of your situations doesn't exactly state what I'm saying. In both of your situations not all players were completely motionless for at least one full second.

My situation is that ALL players become motionless for one full second, THEN a player who goes in motion (who subsequently stops) and the ball is snapped prior to one second elapsing THAT PLAYER is considered to still be in motion; hence it's not an illegal shift. If that player had happened to be moving forward, stopped, then the ball was snapped in < than 1 second I would have illegal motion, again, because he's considered to be still in motion at the snap (which was forward) therefore illegal..

See 1st two sentences of grantsrc's 3rd paragraph. What I did mean was that everyone was set for one full second before ANYONE went in motion.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by ljudge

MJT:

Both of your situations doesn't exactly state what I'm saying. In both of your situations not all players were completely motionless for at least one full second.

My situation is that ALL players become motionless for one full second, THEN a player who goes in motion (who subsequently stops) and the ball is snapped prior to one second elapsing THAT PLAYER is considered to still be in motion; hence it's not an illegal shift. If that player had happened to be moving forward, stopped, then the ball was snapped in < than 1 second I would have illegal motion, again, because he's considered to be still in motion at the snap (which was forward) therefore illegal..

See 1st two sentences of grantsrc's 3rd paragraph. What I did mean was that everyone was set for one full second before ANYONE went in motion.

The only thing I am talking about is your statement of "guy who legally goes in motion and stops for less than one second and the ball is snapped. It's NOT a foul for illegal shift."

That is an illegal shift. Once he stops, it is a shift and he must be stopped for one second before the ball is snapped or it is an illegal shift.

I agree that if he legally went in motion and stayed in motion until the ball is snapped we have no foul. But if he stops after legally being in motion, we have a shift and if he is not set for one second before the snap, we have an IS foul.

I agree with all of Grant's statements in his third paragraph.

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by MJT

That is an illegal shift. Once he stops, it is a shift and he must be stopped for one second before the ball is snapped or it is an illegal shift.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. And, not to be stubborn it's just that I read this interpretation on the NFHS site a few years back. I will search for it on my hard drive. If I happen to find it I'll pass along.

Again, if EVERYONE comes to a stop before that one player goes in motion they (the NFHS people) indicated it satisfied the shift rules. Then, if that one player still in motion stops for less than a second and the ball is subsequently snapped they considered that player to be still in motion. I remember this interp well because it was an "ah-ha" experience for me at that time. I was so surprised I printed it in case it ever came up in a game where I would have support for ruling it the way I did. I just need to remember where I put it.

[ljudge]

OK, being the pack rat that I am I found this on my hard drive. It's an html page from the NFHS 2002 interpretations that I saved.

SITUATION 8: Team A comes to the line of scrimmage and is motionless for at least one second. Back, A2 legally goes in motion and stops just prior to the ball being snapped. RULING: No foul. A2 is considered to be in motion at the snap. (7-2-7)

Unfortunately the size of the document exceeds the maximum length. If anyone wants me to e-mail feel free to send me your e-mail address.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by ljudge

OK, being the pack rat that I am I found this on my hard drive. It's an html page from the NFHS 2002 interpretations that I saved.

SITUATION 8: Team A comes to the line of scrimmage and is motionless for at least one second. Back, A2 legally goes in motion and stops just prior to the ball being snapped. RULING: No foul. A2 is considered to be in motion at the snap. (7-2-7)

Unfortunately the size of the document exceeds the maximum length. If anyone wants me to e-mail feel free to send me your e-mail address.

That doesn't make sense though. If that were true, according to Bob M's article that is on Grant's site that says how players moving from the huddle to the LOS is "motion" there would be no foul if the last of them who went down was not set for one second before the snap. We know that is an IS foul, so why wouldn't this be?

[ljudge]

I just wrote back to Bob M. on this. I simply THINK they're saying that everyone must be set for an entire second before anyone goes in motion. Then, and only then, if ONE player goes in motion and stops for less than a second, then consider him to still be in motion.

Here's two scenarios (from the way I understand it)

Play 1) All players get set for one full second, a player goes in motion, stops, and less than a second later the ball is snapped. Legal from what they posted.

Play 2) All players get set for one full second, a player goes in motion, stops, and less than a second later a second player shifts, stops, and less than a second later the ball is snapped. Illegal from I can see. This would be legal in NCAA.

For all its worth.