The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Football (https://forum.officiating.com/football/)
-   -   Man in motion (https://forum.officiating.com/football/37472-man-motion.html)

Time2Ref Sun Aug 12, 2007 06:06am

Man in motion
 
Team A in formation.

A1 goes in motion. When A1 gets to the middle of the formation behind QB, he faces the line of scrimmage and "runs in place". Ball is snapped.

I throw the flag. After the play, I report to the referee Illegal Procedure on A1 for not being set for 1 second before snap.

Coach claims A1 is still in motion because he is "running in place".

What do you have?

JugglingReferee Sun Aug 12, 2007 06:17am

Canadian Ruling
 
It sounds like a play of interest that a coach should discuss with the R and U during the pre-game coaches conference.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Time2Ref
Team A in formation.

A1 goes in motion. When A1 gets to the middle of the formation behind QB, he faces the line of scrimmage and "runs in place". Ball is snapped.

I throw the flag. After the play, I report to the referee Illegal Procedure on A1 for not being set for 1 second before snap.

Coach claims A1 is still in motion because he is "running in place".

What do you have?

CANADIAN RULING:

Legal. Team A must still meet the other formation requirements if A1 vacated the LS.

TXMike Sun Aug 12, 2007 06:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time2Ref
Team A in formation.

A1 goes in motion. When A1 gets to the middle of the formation behind QB, he faces the line of scrimmage and "runs in place". Ball is snapped.

I throw the flag. After the play, I report to the referee Illegal Procedure on A1 for not being set for 1 second before snap.

Coach claims A1 is still in motion because he is "running in place".

What do you have?

The requirement for all to be set 1 second applies to when 2 or more are moving at same time/ If all move to formation and set for 1 second before A1 starts motion then he can still be moving, even if it is running inplace, when ball is snapped.

ForensicRef Sun Aug 12, 2007 07:39am

My understanding is that to be "in motion" you have to be moving parallel to the line, even if you're facing forward you still have to be moving parallel. If you stop, you have to set. So running in place would be an Illegal Shift or probably better, Illegal Procedure, wouldn't it?

TXMike Sun Aug 12, 2007 08:15am

Not under NCAA rules. I do not know about NFHS but seems in the past I have never heard any of the Fed guys calling that type of movement a foul.

cougar729 Sun Aug 12, 2007 09:22am

Like TXMike said, if all players were set, and then he went in motion...and doesnt move towards his opponents goal line at the snap, or simulate the snap, it would be legal motion.

ljudge Sun Aug 12, 2007 09:26am

First guys, GET RID of the illegal procedure terminology.

Now for the FED version of illegal shift. ALL players must be set for one full second before anyone goes in motion. If that happens and a man goes in motion, yes, he can stop and run in place. NO foul. Now say that same guy who legally goes in motion and stops for less than one second and the ball is snapped. It's NOT a foul for illegal shift. He's considered by interpretation to still be in motion. That was published about 5 years ago.

The one difference between Fed and NCAA is if everyone gets set for a second, then someone goes in motion and subsequently stops, then another player goes in motion less than a second later you have NO foul in NCAA but DO have a foul in Fed for an illegal shift.

grantsrc Sun Aug 12, 2007 09:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljudge
First guys, GET RID of the illegal procedure terminology.

Thank you! There is no such beast as Illegal Procedure. That was removed either last year or a few years back.

Now, for a good discussion on Shifts vs. Motion, Bob M. wrote a terrific piece that I have posted on my resource site. A must read to help clarify this situation.

As for what you describe, you didn't say if everyone was set prior to the motion. If so, I've got nothing. Now, if he goes in motion and not everyone was set, then you have an illegal shift. The only time you will have IM is when the motion man is heading towards the LOS.

Something else to keep in mind, if the motion starts prior to the QB getting under center, you will have an illegal shift too. I have a video posted on my site that illustrates this play.

Time2Ref Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:38am

grantsrc,

That is an excellent article addressing shift vs. motion. Comparing them side by side certainly helped me to understand both a lot better.

Of course, I will have to re-read it a few more times before it really sinks in.

Thanks

MJT Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljudge
Now say that same guy who legally goes in motion and stops for less than one second and the ball is snapped. It's NOT a foul for illegal shift. He's considered by interpretation to still be in motion. That was published about 5 years ago.

I disagree with you on the above statement. 2-39 "A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap."

From the case book.
7.2.6 Situation B: Backs A1 and A2 simultaneously move to new backfield positions prior to the snap. In less than one second after both are stationary: (a) A3 goes in motion and is in motion at the snap; or (b) the ball is snapped.
Ruling: Illegal shift in both (a) and (b). Following a huddle or a shift, all 11 players of A must come to a complete stop and must remain stationary simultaneously for at least one second before the snap or before a player goes in motion. (2-38)

7.2.7 Situation: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center. The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
Ruling: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In (d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap.
Comment: If the quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a shift and not motion. (2-38; 7-2-6)

ljudge Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:25pm

MJT:

Both of your situations doesn't exactly state what I'm saying. In both of your situations not all players were completely motionless for at least one full second.

My situation is that ALL players become motionless for one full second, THEN a player who goes in motion (who subsequently stops) and the ball is snapped prior to one second elapsing THAT PLAYER is considered to still be in motion; hence it's not an illegal shift. If that player had happened to be moving forward, stopped, then the ball was snapped in < than 1 second I would have illegal motion, again, because he's considered to be still in motion at the snap (which was forward) therefore illegal..

See 1st two sentences of grantsrc's 3rd paragraph. What I did mean was that everyone was set for one full second before ANYONE went in motion.

MJT Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljudge
MJT:

Both of your situations doesn't exactly state what I'm saying. In both of your situations not all players were completely motionless for at least one full second.

My situation is that ALL players become motionless for one full second, THEN a player who goes in motion (who subsequently stops) and the ball is snapped prior to one second elapsing THAT PLAYER is considered to still be in motion; hence it's not an illegal shift. If that player had happened to be moving forward, stopped, then the ball was snapped in < than 1 second I would have illegal motion, again, because he's considered to be still in motion at the snap (which was forward) therefore illegal..

See 1st two sentences of grantsrc's 3rd paragraph. What I did mean was that everyone was set for one full second before ANYONE went in motion.

The only thing I am talking about is your statement of "guy who legally goes in motion and stops for less than one second and the ball is snapped. It's NOT a foul for illegal shift."

That is an illegal shift. Once he stops, it is a shift and he must be stopped for one second before the ball is snapped or it is an illegal shift.

I agree that if he legally went in motion and stayed in motion until the ball is snapped we have no foul. But if he stops after legally being in motion, we have a shift and if he is not set for one second before the snap, we have an IS foul.

I agree with all of Grant's statements in his third paragraph.

Robert Goodman Sun Aug 12, 2007 04:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljudge
Now for the FED version of illegal shift. ALL players must be set for one full second before anyone goes in motion. If that happens and a man goes in motion, yes, he can stop and run in place. NO foul. Now say that same guy who legally goes in motion and stops for less than one second and the ball is snapped. It's NOT a foul for illegal shift. He's considered by interpretation to still be in motion. That was published about 5 years ago.

Good. It always seemed silly with the 1-player move that you could be flagged for stopping for between 0 & 1 sec, but not flagged outside those parameters, so you had them taking steps in place to comply.

However, can I take it that motion can be judged as forward as averaged over the previous 1 sec., so that a shifting back can't legally kill forward motion just by running in place for <1 sec.?

Quote:

The one difference between Fed and NCAA is if everyone gets set for a second, then someone goes in motion and subsequently stops, then another player goes in motion less than a second later you have NO foul in NCAA but DO have a foul in Fed for an illegal shift.
Doesn't NCAA still have in its definition of shift "by a movement of both feet"?

Robert

TXMike Sun Aug 12, 2007 06:46pm

NCAA:
A shift is a simultaneous change of position by two or more offensive players after the ball is ready for play for a scrimmage and before the next snap.

ljudge Sun Aug 12, 2007 08:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJT

That is an illegal shift. Once he stops, it is a shift and he must be stopped for one second before the ball is snapped or it is an illegal shift.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. And, not to be stubborn it's just that I read this interpretation on the NFHS site a few years back. I will search for it on my hard drive. If I happen to find it I'll pass along.

Again, if EVERYONE comes to a stop before that one player goes in motion they (the NFHS people) indicated it satisfied the shift rules. Then, if that one player still in motion stops for less than a second and the ball is subsequently snapped they considered that player to be still in motion. I remember this interp well because it was an "ah-ha" experience for me at that time. I was so surprised I printed it in case it ever came up in a game where I would have support for ruling it the way I did. I just need to remember where I put it.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:05am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1