Our Captain Said What???

[buckrog64]

Friday night the home team won the opening toss and deferred. Visitors then chose to defend a goal that would give them a healthy wind during the first quarter. We clarified with the captains, which I know is doing more than most crews should, that they wanted to defend that goal so they could have the wind. So of course at half-time it's home's choice since they deferred and naturally they wanted the ball. Visitor's coaches went nuts. Informed us that these kids were only high schoolers...

Question is: would you inform the coach immediately as to what could happen at the beginning of the second half? Or just let them spin on it when the time comes?

[TerpZebra]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

Friday night the home team won the opening toss and deferred. Visitors then chose to defend a goal that would give them a healthy wind during the first quarter. We clarified with the captains, which I know is doing more than most crews should, that they wanted to defend that goal so they could have the wind. So of course at half-time it's home's choice since they deferred and naturally they wanted the ball. Visitor's coaches went nuts. Informed us that these kids were only high schoolers...

Question is: would you inform the coach immediately as to what could happen at the beginning of the second half? Or just let them spin on it when the time comes?

My philosophy is that these are high school juniors and seniors. They have been playing football for a while now and should know what to say. If they don't, then the coach should have instructed them better. You gave them an opportunity to change their mind, and they didn't heed your warning.

Not sure if you said it, but whenever I get in that situation I will say something similar to this:

"now captain, if that is your choice, then you will most likely be kicking off after halftime, too."

if they still want to "kick" then that's their choice.

[BigFarns]

We had the same situation in a JV game a few weeks ago. The kid said kick in the first half and the white hat just shrugged. Being a JV game I piped up discreetly as possible from my position opposite the ref (I was Umpire that game) and said "Sir, does the captain know he'll be kicking off in both halves most likely?" The ref stopped...looked to the captain and clarified the choice. The cocky little turd said "they'll need all the help they can get, so we want to be on defense." We both shrugged and went on with the game. Game ended Home team 16 cocky visitors 8. Guess they coulda used another series, eh? LOL

[RoyGardner]

But think what the coach probably told his captains. I'll bet it was "If they win the toss, we want to kick from the scoreboard end." (with the wind). Oops, he forgot to tell them "If they win the toss and take the ball...."

We avoid that kind of problem by responding back to the other team (after winner of toss has deferred) so you'll take the ball this half? That way we avoid the messy discussion with the irate coach even though his players "did what they were told". This is my 4th year of being the U at the coin toss and we have not let one of those boneheaded calls go in a HS game yet.

We did let it go in a JC game once when after we tried three times to get the winning team to defer, they kept insisting that the coach said he wanted them to kick, so kick they did, in both halves.

[parepat]

I try and lead them in the right direction with "if you choose to kick now, they will have the choice in the second half and thus you will never get to receive. Is that what your coach would want?" If they insist, let it go.

[MJT]

You should definitely try to explain to them that they will be kicking off both halfs and not get to receive either half if they make the choice they formentioned. Maybe give them one more shot yet, then I'd tell the coach what happened right after the captains meeting, telling him we explained it a couple of different way so he was certain to make the choice he wanted.

[ljudge]

To avoid these kinds of issues I learned when I was a LJ is my referee asked the captains at the sideline before we walked out to the toss if they knew what choice they would want if they did win the toss. Then, you don't have unwanted criticism of allowing the captain to change his choice (or give further clarification). Our Umpire did the same at his sideline.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by buckrog64

Friday night the home team won the opening toss and deferred. Visitors then chose to defend a goal that would give them a healthy wind during the first quarter. We clarified with the captains, which I know is doing more than most crews should, that they wanted to defend that goal so they could have the wind. So of course at half-time it's home's choice since they deferred and naturally they wanted the ball. Visitor's coaches went nuts. Informed us that these kids were only high schoolers...

Question is: would you inform the coach immediately as to what could happen at the beginning of the second half? Or just let them spin on it when the time comes?

We ask the coach during the pre-game meeting what he would like his captains to do if they win the toss. That way we can make sure the captain makes the right choice.

[Forksref]

I now ask them, "Do want to choose now or defer your choice to the 2nd half?" That has made it a lot smoother.

Also, I will inform the coach if they choose neither the ball or to defer. "Coach, your captain chose to defend a goal. The other team will get their choice the 2nd half."

[bluezebra]

I was the Umpire in a JV game (first of a JV/VAR). I was on the home side with the captains ready to go out for the second half choice. An ASSistant coach told the captain (it was theie choice), "Take that goal". The captain looked at him, but didn't say anything. Don't argue with a coach. The ref says, "Your choice", and the captain replies, "We'll take that goal" (while pointing). The refasks if he's sure, and the captain replies, "yes". When the ref places the captains, and gives the signals, the head coach is going bananas on the sideline. When we return to the sideline for the kickoff, the HC is chewing out the captain, who of course says nothing. Of course, the ASSistant didn't have the juevos to say, "Coach it was MY fault". He just let the captain take the heat. I leaned over and quietly said, "THAT coach told him to defend that goal". He thanked me, and apologized to the captain.

Don't you love ASSistant coaches?

Bob

[bossman72]

From player perspective:

We (obviously) don't know the rules. 99% of the players think there are 2 options: Kick and receive (and they also think that the word "defer" is just a fancy word for "kick" or "play defense.")

Like others have said, don't hang the players out to dry because they don't know what's going on. Besides, most of the captains are in outer space before the game because of the adrenaline rush. As others have said, let them know the consequences of their bad choices and make every effort to not put them in a bad situation.

[waltjp]

I agree, many don't know what 'defer' means. Just explain that by saying they defer the other team is giving up the right to make a choice to start the game. So do you want to kick, receive or defend a goal?

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by bossman72

From player perspective:

We (obviously) don't know the rules. 99% of the players think there are 2 options: Kick and receive (and they also think that the word "defer" is just a fancy word for "kick" or "play defense.")

Like others have said, don't hang the players out to dry because they don't know what's going on. Besides, most of the captains are in outer space before the game because of the adrenaline rush. As others have said, let them know the consequences of their bad choices and make every effort to not put them in a bad situation.

Maybe if coaches read the rule books and case books, they could impart some pertinent information to their players. When I belonged to the San Fernando Unit of the California Football Officials Association, we invited ALL the head coches (and their assistants) in our area to attend our clinics. In the time I was in the unit, a grand total of ZERO showed up.

Bob

[SouthGARef]

When I white hat JV/MS games, I always ask the coaches in the pregame conference what they will do if they win the toss. And when we actually get the captains to walk them out, before we do so I make sure the home captain knows what he's going to do, and I ask me umpire to do the same with the visiting team.

On Friday nights we do the same thing, but I'm a BJ so I have no input on the discussion here.

I agree that HS seniors and juniors SHOULD know what they're doing. Sad fact is, they don't. And I don't want to punish an entire team because a 17 year old kid doesn't understand a concept that confuses a lot of players/coaches/referees/fans as well.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Maybe if coaches read the rule books and case books, they could impart some pertinent information to their players. When I belonged to the San Fernando Unit of the California Football Officials Association, we invited ALL the head coches (and their assistants) in our area to attend our clinics. In the time I was in the unit, a grand total of ZERO showed up.

Up here in Washington, head coaches are required to attend the clinic at the start of each sports season. While the clinics are now online, they are still required.

Unfortunately, the clinic usually emphasizes rule changes and clarifications, than actual rule study. Perhaps all head coaches should be officials for at least one season first.