Our Captain Said What???

[bossman72]

From player perspective:

We (obviously) don't know the rules. 99% of the players think there are 2 options: Kick and receive (and they also think that the word "defer" is just a fancy word for "kick" or "play defense.")

Like others have said, don't hang the players out to dry because they don't know what's going on. Besides, most of the captains are in outer space before the game because of the adrenaline rush. As others have said, let them know the consequences of their bad choices and make every effort to not put them in a bad situation.

[waltjp]

I agree, many don't know what 'defer' means. Just explain that by saying they defer the other team is giving up the right to make a choice to start the game. So do you want to kick, receive or defend a goal?

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by bossman72

From player perspective:

We (obviously) don't know the rules. 99% of the players think there are 2 options: Kick and receive (and they also think that the word "defer" is just a fancy word for "kick" or "play defense.")

Like others have said, don't hang the players out to dry because they don't know what's going on. Besides, most of the captains are in outer space before the game because of the adrenaline rush. As others have said, let them know the consequences of their bad choices and make every effort to not put them in a bad situation.

Maybe if coaches read the rule books and case books, they could impart some pertinent information to their players. When I belonged to the San Fernando Unit of the California Football Officials Association, we invited ALL the head coches (and their assistants) in our area to attend our clinics. In the time I was in the unit, a grand total of ZERO showed up.

Bob

[SouthGARef]

When I white hat JV/MS games, I always ask the coaches in the pregame conference what they will do if they win the toss. And when we actually get the captains to walk them out, before we do so I make sure the home captain knows what he's going to do, and I ask me umpire to do the same with the visiting team.

On Friday nights we do the same thing, but I'm a BJ so I have no input on the discussion here.

I agree that HS seniors and juniors SHOULD know what they're doing. Sad fact is, they don't. And I don't want to punish an entire team because a 17 year old kid doesn't understand a concept that confuses a lot of players/coaches/referees/fans as well.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Maybe if coaches read the rule books and case books, they could impart some pertinent information to their players. When I belonged to the San Fernando Unit of the California Football Officials Association, we invited ALL the head coches (and their assistants) in our area to attend our clinics. In the time I was in the unit, a grand total of ZERO showed up.

Up here in Washington, head coaches are required to attend the clinic at the start of each sports season. While the clinics are now online, they are still required.

Unfortunately, the clinic usually emphasizes rule changes and clarifications, than actual rule study. Perhaps all head coaches should be officials for at least one season first.

[SoGARef]

After several fiascos in the past with this same problem I now ask each coach in the pre-game. I say, "Coach, if you win the toss what do you want to do?" I get his response. 90% of the time they want to defer. I then ask, "Which goal do you want to defend? I write down both responses on my game card. At the toss, I make sure that the captains go with what the coach has instructed. I see no problem with this and it has never been questioned.

[BoomerSooner]

don't agree with asking the head coaches ahead of time and then going with what they say. My reasoning to this is that if we are going to do this why not just have the coaches come out for the toss and settle it all that way. I've always believed that if nothing else a coach should be able to get his captain to handle the toss correctly. If not pick a new captain.

I also do not think prompting captains to change their decision onces they've verbalized it is a great idea. Even if we know by saying kick they probably meant defer, the first time an opposing captain catches the winning captain making this mistake and the referee prompts the him to change from kick to defer the opposing captain is going to report this to his coach and then the fun will begin

All this said, I certainly agree that the choices should be given in as clear a manner as possible, and that there shouldn't be an overabundance of kids getting confused or there may be a problem with the way the choices are being given.

I had this discussion with my dad, who captained his high school football team some 35 years ago (never officiated a thing in his life) and he noted that back then the coach actually let the captain make the decision. This was back in the day when kids were held accountable for the actions/decisions. If he had screwed up and his team kicked both halves, he was pretty sure he wouldn't have been a captain anymore and that his teammates would have given him the business. Anymore society in general seems to be in favor of putting kids on the easy road and trying to prevent them from making the mistakes that teach them life's little lessons. Its similar to letting your child touch the stove to learn that its hot...anymore this concept seems outrageous to some parents that anyone would let their kid touch a hot stove, but in the end its the best lesson a kid can get. We wonder why kids are getting into more trouble these days, I think when we stop preventing kids from making the small mistakes, they'll learn enough from them to keep from making the big ones.

Now I'll jump off the soapbox.

[cougar729]

You make some valid points, but I think that for the sake of fairness, regardless of what the "intelligence" level of the captain is, don't let them screw up and kick both halves. We're out there to officiate and not take sides, yes, but at a point we have to understand that while the coin toss options are very clear for us, we are dealing with 17 year old football players.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

don't agree with asking the head coaches ahead of time and then going with what they say. My reasoning to this is that if we are going to do this why not just have the coaches come out for the toss and settle it all that way. I've always believed that if nothing else a coach should be able to get his captain to handle the toss correctly. If not pick a new captain.

I also do not think prompting captains to change their decision onces they've verbalized it is a great idea. Even if we know by saying kick they probably meant defer, the first time an opposing captain catches the winning captain making this mistake and the referee prompts the him to change from kick to defer the opposing captain is going to report this to his coach and then the fun will begin

All this said, I certainly agree that the choices should be given in as clear a manner as possible, and that there shouldn't be an overabundance of kids getting confused or there may be a problem with the way the choices are being given.

I had this discussion with my dad, who captained his high school football team some 35 years ago (never officiated a thing in his life) and he noted that back then the coach actually let the captain make the decision. This was back in the day when kids were held accountable for the actions/decisions. If he had screwed up and his team kicked both halves, he was pretty sure he wouldn't have been a captain anymore and that his teammates would have given him the business. Anymore society in general seems to be in favor of putting kids on the easy road and trying to prevent them from making the mistakes that teach them life's little lessons. Its similar to letting your child touch the stove to learn that its hot...anymore this concept seems outrageous to some parents that anyone would let their kid touch a hot stove, but in the end its the best lesson a kid can get. We wonder why kids are getting into more trouble these days, I think when we stop preventing kids from making the small mistakes, they'll learn enough from them to keep from making the big ones.

Now I'll jump off the soapbox.

Please look up the concept of "preventive officiating" and get back to us.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

don't agree with asking the head coaches ahead of time and then going with what they say. My reasoning to this is that if we are going to do this why not just have the coaches come out for the toss and settle it all that way. I've always believed that if nothing else a coach should be able to get his captain to handle the toss correctly. If not pick a new captain.

I also do not think prompting captains to change their decision onces they've verbalized it is a great idea. Even if we know by saying kick they probably meant defer, the first time an opposing captain catches the winning captain making this mistake and the referee prompts the him to change from kick to defer the opposing captain is going to report this to his coach and then the fun will begin

All this said, I certainly agree that the choices should be given in as clear a manner as possible, and that there shouldn't be an overabundance of kids getting confused or there may be a problem with the way the choices are being given.

I had this discussion with my dad, who captained his high school football team some 35 years ago (never officiated a thing in his life) and he noted that back then the coach actually let the captain make the decision. This was back in the day when kids were held accountable for the actions/decisions. If he had screwed up and his team kicked both halves, he was pretty sure he wouldn't have been a captain anymore and that his teammates would have given him the business. Anymore society in general seems to be in favor of putting kids on the easy road and trying to prevent them from making the mistakes that teach them life's little lessons. Its similar to letting your child touch the stove to learn that its hot...anymore this concept seems outrageous to some parents that anyone would let their kid touch a hot stove, but in the end its the best lesson a kid can get. We wonder why kids are getting into more trouble these days, I think when we stop preventing kids from making the small mistakes, they'll learn enough from them to keep from making the big ones.

Now I'll jump off the soapbox.

Excellent post!

I coached basketball for 6 years and the greatest tool I gave the kids was leanring the game and having them starting to make decisions too.

My lil sis is 11 years younger than me. She was using a calculator for relatively simple math. I stepped in and said no way. Do it in your head. Ya, you'll mess up a few times, but soon enough you will develop your own system to prevent the errors. Kids adapt.

What I won't do: accept an answer until I have a chance to verbalize all the options. I like saying, "Do you want to receive (pause), or kick the ball to them (some emphasis on 'kick to them'), or choose an end to defend."

No, about the kid burning his hand.... that might be too much.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

No, about the kid burning his hand.... that might be too much.

First of all, I never said let your kid "burn" his hand. I have a 3-year old and I've watched him touch the stove after being told multiple times not to because it is hot. He touched it, pulled his hand back, cried for a few minutes, and was perfectly fine physically after about 2-3 minutes. More importantly, not only does he not touch the stove anymore, but when I tell him something is going to burn, he remembers that experience. So let it be known that I'm not advocating burning little kids.

Secondly to address Rich, I'm fully aware of the principles of preventative officiating. I just don't feel this is a situation that is in need of it. I think this is a coaching issue (preventative coaching anyone?). I feel preventative officiating is for alerting kids to your style of officiating when they become careless with little aspects of the game, i.e. not being on the line, kids coming close to late hits, equipment issues, just to name a few. In my mind, prompting a captain to change his decision is like granting a TO, then realizing it was the teams last, and then asking the captain if he really wants to use his last time out. If he says "whoops, didn't realize it was our last", are you going to say "okay, let's start the clock and you can have your timeout back". I doubt it if you've already stoped the clock and given your signal.

Otherwise to clarify, I fully agree with what everyone else has said about giving the choices in a manner that avoids the dreaded double kicking situation, but once a captain has made his decision, I'm not going to prompt him to change it (or in effect fix his mistakes). I also agree that there is an age component to this issue, but I think by high school, not only should the kids understand what is going on, the coach should also be very clear in his expectations of the captains at the coin toss.