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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 10:43am
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Enforcement Question

Ok - this is simple but I can't convince the person I am dealing with.

Someone please explain for me the enforcement of a five yard facemask on a defensive player.

IE - During a 2nd down play the RBs facemask is grabbed and given a five yard facemask penalty. The offense is award yardage gained (3 yards) +5 yards for penalty and 2nd down is replayed.

Is that the correct enforcement?

Thanks for the help.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 10:53am
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Yes. Foul is enforced from the end of the run and you repeat the down. You have it right.

Ask him if he can think of where the rulebook says you can enforce a foul on the defense yet NOT repeat the down. That would be like a loss-of-down penalty on a defensive foul.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 11:20am
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NF: Direct him to 5-2-2
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 12:58pm
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Oh, you hit a nerve!!!! Why the heck do so many people have sooooo much problem with this one! Over the last couple of years, I've heard about white hats blowing this enforcement so many times that I'm starting to think it's all part of a big urban legend - but I personally know people who have messed this up. (of course, that's the first sign of an urban legend, but I digress!)

One WH said A had already gained 4 yards, then got five more for the penalty and he wasn't going to give them another down, too - that was too much benefit for a minor foul. Can you believe that logic? Worse, he stuck with his decision after his crew pointed out that it was wrong.

Thank you - the soap box is now vacated..................
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 01:16pm
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REPLY: The 'logic' the wiseref mentions especially comes front-and-center when the foul occurs on first down. Some officials can't get over the counter-intuitive mental block of a 1st and 1 or 1st and 2 situation, and automatically think it should be second down.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 01:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisref2
Oh, you hit a nerve!!!! Why the heck do so many people have sooooo much problem with this one! Over the last couple of years, I've heard about white hats blowing this enforcement so many times that I'm starting to think it's all part of a big urban legend - but I personally know people who have messed this up. (of course, that's the first sign of an urban legend, but I digress!)

One WH said A had already gained 4 yards, then got five more for the penalty and he wasn't going to give them another down, too - that was too much benefit for a minor foul. Can you believe that logic? Worse, he stuck with his decision after his crew pointed out that it was wrong.

Thank you - the soap box is now vacated..................
Thanks for all of the back-up fellas. Wiseref2 - you may need to calm a little - just thinking outloud. But thank you for the passion anyways. I completely understand where you are coming from however. I talked to the guilty teams coach for about ten minutes after the game but could not get him to understand the enforcement. It was rather aggrevating and tiring. Thanks again.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 02:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisref2
Oh, you hit a nerve!!!! Why the heck do so many people have sooooo much problem with this one! Over the last couple of years, I've heard about white hats blowing this enforcement so many times that I'm starting to think it's all part of a big urban legend - but I personally know people who have messed this up. (of course, that's the first sign of an urban legend, but I digress!)

One WH said A had already gained 4 yards, then got five more for the penalty and he wasn't going to give them another down, too - that was too much benefit for a minor foul. Can you believe that logic? Worse, he stuck with his decision after his crew pointed out that it was wrong.

Thank you - the soap box is now vacated..................
I might be totally wrong, but I think this is why this is often viewed wrong--

Defensive facemasks often take place while the tackle is being made. Therefore, I think many people (incorrectly) think this is an 'after the play' (more precise--deadball) foul.

Also, I think many people have the idea that it feels wrong to give a team a gain, then 'give' them a 5 yard penalty (to their benefit), then, after all that, give them the down again. I know I am being a bit dramatic about it, but I'm just trying to think how some people might think about this play.

Of course, it is a 'no-brainer' that the down should be replayed. Another way to think about it...4th and very long. A1 is "pulled down" by the face mask (and face mask only) 18 yards short of the line to gain. If they don't replay the down, A would have to "give the ball up" on downs, which would be particuarly unfair, since B only made the stop by 'cheating.'

But, without a doubt, you are correct wisref2. Just trying to see another point of view (of course I could be totally wrong about it!).
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 09:53pm
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I think part of the confusion is when the foul is on a loose ball play and the basic spot is the previous spot. But, beyond that, it puzzles me why this is a problem. When you take the white hat, you must have made a commitment to knowing the principles of enforcement as well as the rules. Rule 10 has to be up there with Rule 2 as a priority.
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 10:43am
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What About This One?

A1 on b1 20 pitches the ball to a2 who is being tackled at b30 by b2 and commits a 5 yrd facemask on 2nd down and 10. Would you have 2nd and 15 at the b25?
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 11:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRIGUY
A1 on b1 20 pitches the ball to a2 who is being tackled at b30 by b2 and commits a 5 yrd facemask on 2nd down and 10. Would you have 2nd and 15 at the b25?
Yep. But the funny thing is if A would have then fumbled the ball they would have gained back all that yardage they lost and it would only be 2nd and 5 at b35.
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 12:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRIGUY
A1 on b1 20 pitches the ball to a2 who is being tackled at b30 by b2 and commits a 5 yrd facemask on 2nd down and 10. Would you have 2nd and 15 at the b25?
Thought there was no such thing as 5-yard facemask against the offense.
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 12:46pm
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I think many people get this confused because of what they see on Sundays. I believe in some/most instances if a five yard facemask is called, they don't repeat the down.
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
Thought there was no such thing as 5-yard facemask against the offense.

True in NCAA (9-1-2-s Pen.)
but NF can have 5 or 15 against Off. or Def. (9-4-2-h Pen.)
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 05:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthGARef
I think many people get this confused because of what they see on Sundays. I believe in some/most instances if a five yard face mask is called, they don't repeat the down.
Can't say for sure if that is true or not for NFL, but under NAFL (semi-pro) rules which supposedly mirrors NFL rules, a 5-yard face mask on the offense does not include a loss of down provision.
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Old Thu Oct 05, 2006, 09:54pm
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I had to laugh as I had this exact play tonight in a JV game. A gains 4 yards on first down with a 5-yard facemask foul. It brought up 1st and 1.

I had to stop to correct the box man who had it as second down. I don't think anyone else (including my partners) would have ever noticed the mistake.
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