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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 11, 2005, 12:55pm
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The following is taken from a newspaper account of the North Carlolina 3A Championship game between Asheville and Western Alamance played at Duke University on 12/10/05.

"The trick play by the Cougars (15-0) came with them facing a second down and 17 from their own 30-yard line.

A large group of Asheville players came into the game in a mass substitution and several went out, except for receiver Rahkeem Morgan, who stood just inside the out-of-bounds line.

Western didn't notice him and he ran down the field wide open. Cougars quarterback Crezdon Butler immediately saw Morgan and hit him in stride.

A Warriors defender caught him at the 5, but couldn't prevent the touchdown and a 13-10 lead.

"I saw that the corner didn't adjust. We were in desperate straits," said Asheville coach Danny Wilkins. "That was sort of a last resort thing. We let the officials know two plays before that we were going to run it." "

Any thoughts?
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Old Sun Dec 11, 2005, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by jack015
A large group of Asheville players came into the game in a mass substitution and several went out, except for receiver Rahkeem Morgan, who stood just inside the out-of-bounds line.

Any thoughts?
Sounds like a sleeper play.

Misleading tactics, 10 yards.
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Old Sun Dec 11, 2005, 01:25pm
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Sounds like illegal participation to me.

Rule 9-6-4-d - "To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick."

Where was the receiver when the RFP was given? You could also have called illegal formation if that receiver who stayed inbounds moved to that position before the RFP was given. He HAS to be momentarily between the 9-yard marks after the RFP.
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Old Sun Dec 11, 2005, 02:27pm
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NCAA: Live ball foul, 15 yard penalty.
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Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 09:42am
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In Ohio, after the ball is ready for play, each player of A who participated in the previous play and any substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.
We would have flagged A for illegal formation.

Isn't this is a federation rule, which governs all states athletic associations?
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Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 10:02am
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ljudge
Sounds like illegal participation to me.

Rule 9-6-4-d - "To use a player, replaced player or substitute in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick."

Where was the receiver when the RFP was given? You could also have called illegal formation if that receiver who stayed inbounds moved to that position before the RFP was given. He HAS to be momentarily between the 9-yard marks after the RFP.
ljudge nailed it for NF. I cannot believe this would go off in a state playoff game without a penalty.
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Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 10:10am
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Play was legal.

There was no "mass substitution." 11 players were in the huddle. Asheville player broke the huddle after the ready for play was blown, but before the Western Alamance team broke their huddle. Being within the nine-yard marks was not an issue. Receiver ran to the Asheville sideline, staying on the field, and Western Alamance just didn't notice him over there. There was no deception "at or immediately before the snap."

Coach notified the officials before the game that they might run the play, and officials were notified on the field two plays prior that Asheville was going to run the play. So the officials were looking closely to make sure all was legal when the play was run.
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Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 10:44am
MJT MJT is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by jrfath
Play was legal.

There was no "mass substitution." 11 players were in the huddle. Asheville player broke the huddle after the ready for play was blown, but before the Western Alamance team broke their huddle. Being within the nine-yard marks was not an issue. Receiver ran to the Asheville sideline, staying on the field, and Western Alamance just didn't notice him over there. There was no deception "at or immediately before the snap."

Coach notified the officials before the game that they might run the play, and officials were notified on the field two plays prior that Asheville was going to run the play. So the officials were looking closely to make sure all was legal when the play was run.
How then is this a trick play? The only thing I am thinking is that they huddled and broke much earlier than normal, but the player was inside the 9 yard marks before the RFP, maybe on his way out to his spot?
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Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 12:30pm
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REPLY: Breaking from the huddle after the RFP and going out to a wideout position near the sideline. What's so unususal about that? Why would it require the coach to "inform" the officials that they might run such a play? And why would the coach look to excuse such a mundane play by saying, "We were in desperate straits" and "This was a last resort thing" ??? Something sounds a little inconsistent (fishy?) here.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 10:28am
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Jack015: can you post the link to the newpaper your quote comes from. thanks
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 11:01am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Theisey
Jack015: can you post the link to the newpaper your quote comes from. thanks

The article ran in the 12/11/2005 edition.

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 11:58am
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Thanks for sharing the article. I stick with my original post, Illegal Participation.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 12:10pm
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There have been several other newclips located and none report any mass substitution taking place.

deleted(I can't get at the article as it resides in their archives and there is a cost associated with viewing it.)

Persistent as I am, I did finally locate a link at the paper. The "mass substitution" comment is in there.:

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.../NEWSREC020503

So which report do you believe??????????

[Edited by Theisey on Dec 13th, 2005 at 12:24 PM]
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 02:10pm
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OK, I just got off the phone with one of the guys from the NC State Association.
It just didn't happen.
THe guy I talked to was on the sideline (Western Alamance side), knew it was going to happen, and saw the whole thing.
It wasn't a trick play.
What happened was that Asheville ran a play near their own sideline. After the play ended they made a one for one substitution immediately. The team (all 11) then went to the hash and made a huddle. After the RFP one of the players then left the huddle, went towards the sideline and set up in a normal stance. He made no other motions or actions like he was leaving the field. The rest of the team THEN took their normal positions. The Western Allimance players did not see the player.
The gentleman I talked to said that he was watching to see if anyone on the Asheville sideline did ANYTHING to beckon the player, or in any other way make an attempt to deceive the defense. He said NOTHING like this happened.
He also said the Western Allimance coaching staff saw the "loose" player and was attempting to get their players to cover him when the ball was snapped.
I asked WHY the 'notification' to the officials? The answer was that they just wasnted to make sure that there was no question that the official saw that the substitution, and the subsequent action, was legal. (Not a bad choice.)
So it would appear that the "play" (it really wasn't a play at all) was legal. The problem lay in the description by the press (We all know how completely accurate that is.... about like rules statements from the talking heads!)
The only real question is ... Why didn't the Western Allimance HC call a time-out????
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 02:13pm
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BTW, he also said his (and every other phone at the Asso. office) has been ringing off the hook yesterday and today.
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