Play question?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by ChickenOfNC
I don't know. There's been a whole lot of discussion at our local association meetings about what constitutes a new force. We've had a lot of guys who argue both ways on this.

To me, anything which makes the ball move faster or in a different direction is a new force, atleast that's how I read the definition of force. When I was talking to Grant he mentioned that NCAA doesn't have force but they have impetus which I believe could make the ruling differnet.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by ChickenOfNC
I don't know. There's been a whole lot of discussion at our local association meetings about what constitutes a new force. We've had a lot of guys who argue both ways on this.

REPLY: The rule used to read that a new force could be added to a ball at rest or nearly at rest. But they changed that some time ago. I'll check when they did that when I get home and post the "before" and "after" rules.

Note: In NCAA, a new force (they call it "impetus") can be imparted by a bat or an illegal kick. Any other contact (e.g. a muff) can impart a new impetus only when the ball has come to rest.

[cmathews]

hey guys,
This is a definite new force...if the ball is rolling away from the goal line then all of a sudden is behind the goal line a new force was applied...If not then we have broken a much higher set of laws....the laws of physics say a new force was applied, and laws always trump rules LOL

[mcrowder]

By that logic, ANY contact with the ball, however small, would constitute a NEW force. What are the rules in FED around this (what do those rules actually say)? I'm an NCAA guy trying to understand this.

[golfdesigner]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes
That's funny, I was just talking to Grant about this play because it happened in one of my games. Here is a caseplay that covers it:

8.5.3 SITUATION A: With fourth down and 7 from K's 10, K1 punts from the end zone. The kick is partially blocked and is just barely moving at K's 2-yard line when R1's muff provides a new force which moves the ball into, and out of, the end zone. RULING: Touchback. Because it was the new force by R1 which caused the ball to go out of K's end zone, the result is a touchback instead of a safety. (2-13-1;8-5-3b)

Okay, I'm a newbie here, touchback okay I understand that but who puts ball in play at 20? Is it 1/10 K because they have now made it past Line to Gain? or is it 1/10 for R from the 20 going in?

Help me clarify, thanks.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by mcrowder
By that logic, ANY contact with the ball, however small, would constitute a NEW force. What are the rules in FED around this (what do those rules actually say)? I'm an NCAA guy trying to understand this.

The fed rules avoid that problem by telling us when to ignore mr Newton. It says that force is never a factor on kicks into R's endzone. If in this play R muffed the ball at their 5 yard line and it was rolling on the ground away from their goal line, at which point r2 came along and tried to cover it, and knocked it into the endzone, where R 3 recovered it, we have a Touchback as opposed to a safety, because force is never a factor on kicks into r's endzone....and kicks into R's endzone are always a touchback

[golfdesigner]

Originally posted by cmathews

The fed rules avoid that problem by telling us when to ignore mr Newton. It says that force is never a factor on kicks into R's endzone. If in this play R muffed the ball at their 5 yard line and it was rolling on the ground away from their goal line, at which point r2 came along and tried to cover it, and knocked it into the endzone, where R 3 recovered it, we have a Touchback as opposed to a safety, because force is never a factor on kicks into r's endzone....and kicks into R's endzone are always a touchback

But the original post was

Originally posted by tpaul
K1 scrimmage kick is blocked on K's 5-yard line and is rolling away from the near goal line when R1 muffs the ball in K's end zone. K2 recovers the ball and is downed in the end zone. Ruling:

putting ball back into K's endzone?

[ChickenOfNC]

We're talking about K's endzone

[Snake~eyes]

Read the casebook play I posted, it is this exact scenario, is it not?

[schwinn]

Originally posted by mcrowder
By that logic, ANY contact with the ball, however small, would constitute a NEW force. What are the rules in FED around this (what do those rules actually say)? I'm an NCAA guy trying to understand this.

Fed rules say a muff of a grounded scrimmage kick can provide a new force and a muff is defined (loosely) as an unsuccessful attempt to gain possession.

Originally posted by schwinn

Fed rules say a muff of a grounded scrimmage kick can provide a new force and a muff is defined (loosely) as an unsuccessful attempt to gain possession.

your game play is very close to mine. Mine said the 5 yd and yours said the 1 t=yard line. but either way it is the same. TB K 1-10 at K 20

SECTION 13 FORCE
ART. 1 . . . Force is the result of energy exerted by a player which provides movement of the ball. The term force is used only in connection with the goal line and in only one direction, i.e., from the field of play into the end zone. Initial force results from a carry, fumble, kick, pass or snap. After a backward pass, fumble or kick has been grounded, a new force may result from a bat, an illegal kick or a muff.
ART. 2 . . . Responsibility for forcing the ball from the field of play across a goal line is attributed to the player who carries, snaps, passes, fumbles or kicks the ball, unless a new force is applied to either a backward pass, kick or fumble that has been grounded.

ART. 3 . . . The muffing or batting of a pass, kick or fumble in flight is not considered a new force.
ART. 4 . . . Force is not a factor:

a. On kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force.
b. When a backward pass or fumble is declared dead in the end zone of the opponent of the player who passed or fumbled, with no player possession.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by tpaul

your game play is very close to mine. Mine said the 5 yd and yours said the 1 t=yard line. but either way it is the same. TB K 1-10 at K 20

I think I agree, but here is another little nugget...what if the LTG was the 30??

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by mcrowder
By that logic, ANY contact with the ball, however small, would constitute a NEW force. What are the rules in FED around this (what do those rules actually say)? I'm an NCAA guy trying to understand this.

REPLY: See tpaul's post (10/3 5:46pm) The Fed rules say that a new force may be added. It's solely in the covering official's judgement to determine if the contact with the ball was sufficient to put the ball across the goal line and that there was no reasonable expectation that it could have gotten there without the contact. As a counter-example, A fumbles at his own 5. Ball is rolling backwards toward A's goal line. B muffs the ball across the goal line where A recovers...or it rolls OOB behind the goal line. My ruling: Safety. I would not rule a new force if the ball was rolling toward A's goal line when B muffs it.