Covered tight end

[eventnyc]

This situation caused quite a bit of discussion at our association's meeting. Here's the sitch:

Tight end lines up on the line and is covered. The team sets for one second with all interior lineman (except the tight end) in a three point stance. The TE has his hands on his knees. The TE, without simulating the start of a play goes in motion and resets in the slot. No other player is in motion. The team is again reset for a second and the ball is snapped. Legal play?

[ljudge]

All I got is a hankie that stays in the pocket.

The "TE" (not really since he's not an end) can move because he never went into a 3-point stance. Actually, he could stay in motion without a penalty so long as he's 5-yards behind the LOS at the snap.

You still need 7 on the line however. Since he was "covered" I'm assuming there was originally 8 on the line, including the "TE."

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by eventnyc
This situation caused quite a bit of discussion at our association's meeting. Here's the sitch:

Tight end lines up on the line and is covered. The team sets for one second with all interior lineman (except the tight end) in a three point stance. The TE has his hands on his knees. The TE, without simulating the start of a play goes in motion and resets in the slot. No other player is in motion. The team is again reset for a second and the ball is snapped. Legal play?

What you describe is not motion. It's a shift. Motion is one player is legally moving at the snap.

Originally posted by eventnyc
This situation caused quite a bit of discussion at our association's meeting. Here's the sitch:

Tight end lines up on the line and is covered. The team sets for one second with all interior lineman (except the tight end) in a three point stance. The TE has his hands on his knees. The TE, without simulating the start of a play goes in motion and resets in the slot. No other player is in motion. The team is again reset for a second and the ball is snapped. Legal play?

I say you have a false start. Once the TE is covered he goes under the rules of a lineaman and cannot shift.

If he is covered by a WR and that wr shifts back off the line (un-covering the TE) the the TE could go in motion of shift.

[waltjp]

He's not set. He can shift. Tom, using your example we'd have to throw on the muddle huddle.

Originally posted by waltjp
He's not set. He can shift. Tom, using your example we'd have to throw on the muddle huddle.

But the whole muddle shifts not just one player??

Can a Tackle shift if his hand isn't on the ground?

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by tpaul

But the whole muddle shifts not just one player??

Can a Tackle shift if his hand isn't on the ground?

The interior lineman of a muddle huddle can shift because they have not put their hand on the ground. Any of the 11 players can shift prior to the snap as long as they are set for one second prior to the snap. What 'freezes' interior linemen in place is the rule After the ball is ready for play and before the snap begins, no false start shall be made by any A player. It is a false start if:...Any A player on his line between the snapper and the player on the end of his line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground, moves his hand(s) or makes any quick movement. (7-1-7c)

[grantsrc]

Originally posted by tpaul

But the whole muddle shifts not just one player??

Can a Tackle shift if his hand isn't on the ground?

Yup. As long as he doesn't simulate the snap and isn't in a three point stance.

We had the scenario presented above last night numerous times. It looks weird at first, but it perfectly legal.

[eventnyc]

Thanks for your responses. I sent this link to the two officials I worked with yesterday. We had the discussiuon pre-game and couldn't agree regarding the legality of the play. I also sent it to our interpreter, who explained it correctly at our last meeting. As you can see from the above responses, not everyone was 100% sure about the ruling. That is why this forum is so valuable. Thanks again!

Originally posted by eventnyc
Thanks for your responses. I sent this link to the two officials I worked with yesterday. We had the discussiuon pre-game and couldn't agree regarding the legality of the play. I also sent it to our interpreter, who explained it correctly at our last meeting. As you can see from the above responses, not everyone was 100% sure about the ruling. That is why this forum is so valuable. Thanks again!

that is why I love this forum and we have a great bunch of guys here! It's awesome that we can work though our thoughts instead of screwing it up in the game!

Thanks guys!

[Jim S]

By Grantsrc
"Can a Tackle shift if his hand isn't on the ground?
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Yup. As long as he doesn't simulate the snap and isn't in a three point stance.

We had the scenario presented above last night numerous times. It looks weird at first, but it perfectly legal."
__________________
This answer is not really correct. An interior lineman can shift as long as he does not false start. It is a false start if:
1. ANY A player comits a shift or feigned start tha simiulates action at the snap.
2. He comits an ct designed to cause B to encroach.
3. An interior lineman "AFTER having placed his hand(s) on, or NEAR, the ground moves his hand(s) or make any quick motion.

So you don't have to be in a three point stance to be restricted. You hands don't have to be touching the ground at all. If a lineman is standing, or even croaching, and does not have his hand on or near the ground, he may shift to a new position or even go in motion. It may not be done in a fashion that will draw the defense into encroaching by either intent or action. If his hands are down near the ground he may not move.
What's near the ground? Whatever the crew determines meets the requirement. Does he look like he's in position to run a play from a down position? Then his hands may be near enough. Does he look like they may shift to a down position as some teams do? In that case he is probably NOT in a set position.