When does the clock start? (NF)

[Daryl H. Long]

To all those who say start on the snap I agree.

Yes, Hell may be freezing over because my reply will be short and not my normal long dissertation.

The correct rule to apply to this situation is NF 3-4-2b3.

In laymans terms it say that if during a play in which a foul occurs the next play will start on the ready if the action which caused the down to end DID NOT also cause the clock to be stopped.

What caused the clock to stop in the situation?

The foul? NO...Fund III Dead Ball #2: no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

To award a new series. YES. Please note: whether or not a new series is actually awarded is not a factor in the decisionof when to start the clock on next play. In the Sit. the awarding of a new series was why the clock was actually stopped.

Therefore, since the action which caused the down to end DID cause the clock to be stopped the clock will next begin on the snap.

See also article in October issue of Referee Magazine on page 20-22. The Two Minute Drill by Rogers Redding.

[Edited by Daryl H. Long on Sep 28th, 2005 at 01:03 AM]

[mikesears]

Daryl, I used to think this too, but here is why it isn't correct.

The action that killed the down did not also cause the clock to stop.

A down ends when the ball becomes dead so look at how the ball becomes dead.


Rule 4-2-2

The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

a. When a runner goes out of bounds, is held so his forward progress is stopped or allows any part of his person other than hand or foot to touch the ground.

EXCEPTION 1: The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position: Catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

EXCEPTION 2: The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position: Rises and catches an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

NOTE: The ball becomes dead if the place-kick holder muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground with other than hand or foot while in possession of the ball.


b. When a live ball goes out of bounds.

c. When any forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete or is simultaneously caught by opposing players.

d. When any legal free kick or scrimmage kick:


1. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded scoring attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line.
2. Which is a scoring attempt, while in flight touches a K player in R’s end zone, or after breaking the plane of R’s goal line has apparently failed.

EXCEPTION If a scoring attempt kick touches an upright or crossbar or an R player in the end zone and caroms through the goal, the touching is ignored and the attempt is successful.

e. When any loose ball:
1. Is simultaneously caught or recovered by opposing players.
2. Is on the ground motionless and no player attempts to secure possession.
3. Touches, or is touched by, anything inbounds other than a player, substitute, replaced player, an official, the ground or authorized equipment. In this case the ball will be put in play in accordance with the procedure for an inadvertent whistle as in 4-2-3b.

f. When the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere, and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and when the kickers are first (i.e., before any touching by the receivers) to touch a scrimmage kick after it has come to rest beyond the neutral zone and between the goal lines.

g. Following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal given by any member of the receiving team when a scrimmage kick or free kick is caught or recovered by any member of the receiving team beyond, in or behind the neutral zone.

h. When a touchdown or field goal occurs.

i. During a try if B secures possession or as soon as it is apparent that a kick has failed to score.

j. When an official sounds his whistle inadvertently.

k. When the helmet comes completely off a player who is in possession of the ball.

Here are actions that cause the clock to stop.


Rule 3-4-4

The clock shall be stopped when:

a. The down ends following a foul.

b. An official’s time-out is taken.

c. A charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.

d. The period ends.

e. The ball is out of bounds.

f. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.

g. A score or touchback occurs.

h. A fair catch is made.

i. An inadvertent whistle is sounded.


Lets also look at Rule 3-5-9

Unless the clock is already stopped, an official’s time-out shall be taken as soon as the ball becomes dead following a change of team possession or whenever the covering official declares the ball dead, and it appears to him the ball has reached the line to gain.

Note that the situation in the original play is an official's timeout, nothing more. We don't know when to START the clock until we sort out what happened during the down. Nothing the receiving team did that caused the ball to become dead also caused the clock to stop (because the player was tackled inbounds).

Now we don't award a new series to either team until we consider the action that occured during the down. B/R isn't actually awarded a new series so that rule doesn't apply to when we start the clock.

So when do we start the clock? Again, all we have is an official's timeout. When does the clock start following an official's timeout? On the ready unless the action caused the down to end also caused the clock to stop.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
...What caused the clock to stop in the situation?

...To award a new series. YES. Please note: whether or not a new series is actually awarded is not a factor in the decisionof when to start the clock on next play. In the Sit. the awarding of a new series was why the clock was actually stopped.

See also article in October issue of Referee Magazine on page 20-22. The Two Minute Drill by Rogers Redding.

REPLY: Daryl...the rule which governs the situation is actually NF 5-1-2 as BullDog and others have pointed out: NF 5-1-2:A new series of downs is awarded as follows:
a. After a first, second, or third down, a new series shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul by B.
b. After a fourth down, a new series shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a non-player or unsportsmanlike foul.

Since the acceptance of the penalty for foul negates the new series, no new series is awarded. Therefore, the clock starts on the ready. And remember that Mr Redding is a retired NCAA referee where the clock starts on the snap following any legal kick--regardless of whether there is a foul or not.

Unless you reset the stakes and award a first and ten, you're not awarding a new series.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
What caused the clock to stop in the situation?

The foul? NO...Fund III Dead Ball #2: no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

OOps... and Daryl is usually so good at these.

"No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead." Yes, that's correct. The play ending on its own caused the ball to become dead. This fundamental does NOT say, "No live ball foul causes the CLOCK to stop."

A live ball foul DOES (very often, in fact) give us reason to stop the clock AFTER the ball becomes dead on it's own. Consider by way of example ye olde regular boring play - 1st and 10, run up the middle for 2 yards, a holding penalty on the play. Did the penalty cause the ball to become dead? No, of course not. Did the penalty give us reason to stop the clock after it became dead? Of course it did.

So, to answer your initial question - what caused the ball to become dead? The answer is, in fact (and in both the initial sitch and my simple example) - THE FOUL.

(And further... when do we normally start the clock after a FOUL caused us to stop the clock to administer it? On the ready. In both cases.)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
What caused the clock to stop in the situation?

The foul? NO...Fund III Dead Ball #2: no live ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

To award a new series. YES. Please note: whether or not a new series is actually awarded is not a factor in the decisionof when to start the clock on next play. In the Sit. the awarding of a new series was why the clock was actually stopped.

Sorry preacher but you're just as wrong as the rest of them are.

No, the foul does not cause the ball to become dead. NO ONE SAID THAT IT DID. But the clock is stopped because there's a foul and to determine who will next have possession.

But like CBRoacket, you keep harping on why the clock is stopped, which is wrong. We're focusing on why we are restarting the clock. Once it's recognized that R will accept the foul, we aren't awarding a new series to anyone. We're replaying 4th down!

The clock starts on the READY.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: When a foul occurs during a down, the clock is stopped when the down ends. The reason is for an officials time out to administer the penalty. See 3-5-7j. Then look at 3-4-2a. It clearly says that following an official's timeout, the clock starts on the ready unless B is awarded a new series (they weren't) or a new series is awarded to either team following a legal kick.

[Daryl H. Long]

The ball became dead when the scrimmage kick was recovered by K after being touched by R beyond the neutral zone. At that point the down also ended. No matter what happened on the play the officials were going to stop the clock. Why? to award a new series to either K or R.

So what if a foul occurred? After giving penalty options the only thing to determine is (1)whose possession, (2)what down and (3)whether it is a new series or not,and (4)when to start clock.

R declines K's Penalty:
1. K possession - in possession due to result of play 5-1-3f, 5-2-2
2. 1st - because new series awarded 5-1-3f, 5-2-1, 5-2-5f, 5-2-6
3. new series awarded 5-1-3f(do not confuse this with K reaching the line to gain which is NF 5-1-3a)
4. Snap 3-4-3c

R accepts penalty:
1. K possession 5-2-1
2. 4th - replay the down following enforcement. 5-2-2
3. no new series awarded.
4. Snap - 3-4-2b3. The action which caused the ball to become dead (recovery of scrimmage kick beyond neutal zone). This action also causes the clock to be stopped and the down to end.

***The action causing the clock to be stopped dictates when to start the clock. Remember 3-4-2b says start clock on ready but gives (3) exceptions which would start the clock on the snap instead. In our case exception 3 applies because the action which ended the down also DID cause the clock to stop therefore clock starts on the snap.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
At that point the down also ended. No matter what happened on the play the officials were going to stop the clock. Why? to award a new series to either K or R.

No - not at all true. It is true that no matter what happened on the play, the officials were going to stop the clock... but the OS here is an example not included in your choices above.

The officials were going to stop the clock no matter what happened on the play BECAUSE one of the following had to happen during the play... A) new series for A, B) new series for B, or C) a penalty on one team or the other.

The clock did not stop BECAUSE of the play in this case. It stopped because of the need to administer a penalty. After such administration, there was no series to award.

For the Nth time... stop focusing on why the clock stopped - it's irrelevant. Focus on the rule that tells us when to START the clock - it clearly states that it starts on the snap only in case of a new series for B... Since we did not have that... you start it on the ready. This is easier than we are making it.

[l3will]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
The ball became dead when the scrimmage kick was recovered by K after being touched by R beyond the neutral zone. At that point the down also ended. No matter what happened on the play the officials were going to stop the clock. Why? to award a new series to either K or R.

So what if a foul occurred? After giving penalty options the only thing to determine is (1)whose possession, (2)what down and (3)whether it is a new series or not,and (4)when to start clock.

R declines K's Penalty:
1. K possession - in possession due to result of play 5-1-3f, 5-2-2
2. 1st - because new series awarded 5-1-3f, 5-2-1, 5-2-5f, 5-2-6
3. new series awarded 5-1-3f(do not confuse this with K reaching the line to gain which is NF 5-1-3a)
4. Snap 3-4-3c

R accepts penalty:
1. K possession 5-2-1
2. 4th - replay the down following enforcement. 5-2-2
3. no new series awarded.
4. Snap - 3-4-2b3. The action which caused the ball to become dead (recovery of scrimmage kick beyond neutal zone). This action also causes the clock to be stopped and the down to end.

***The action causing the clock to be stopped dictates when to start the clock. Remember 3-4-2b says start clock on ready but gives (3) exceptions which would start the clock on the snap instead. In our case exception 3 applies because the action which ended the down also DID cause the clock to stop therefore clock starts on the snap.

So I guess you wouldn't start the clock on the ready for this situation either....

A's ball fourth and 4, A runs the ball and gains 3 yards, but during the play B committed defensive holding. A accepts the penalty for the defensive holding and gets awarded a first down because the ball is now beyond the line to gain.

However, according to what Daryl says... we stopped the clock to award B a new series. So the clock would not start until A snapped the ball, even though we didn't award B a new series.

But since we didn't award B series, I would start the clock on the ready.

[mcrowder]

A perfect simpler example of why we need to stop focusing on why we STOPPED the clock (there is actually no mention of this in the rules anywhere), and instead focus solely on the rules surrounding when to START the clock.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by mcrowder

For the Nth time... stop focusing on why the clock stopped - it's irrelevant. Focus on the rule that tells us when to START the clock - it clearly states that it starts on the snap only in case of a new series for B... Since we did not have that... you start it on the ready. This is easier than we are making it.

First mcrowder, while I agree with your final answer, I disagree that the reason the clcok was stopped should be ignored. That's what sets up the reat of the situation. The fact that he's incorrect about why we've stopped the clock doesn't mean that the clock stop reason should be forgotten.

Daryl. again there is no rule that says you stop the clock to award a new series. None.
In this play the reason we stop the clock, after the play is over, is that rule 3.5.7c says we have an official's T.O. called after a play ends when there was a change of team possession. Nothing to do with a new series, legal kicks, or anything else.
Take the following play 3rd down and 6 from the A45. A kicks to the B45, the ball bounces backwards to the A40 where A37 picks it up and runs to the A49. When do we start the clock?

[mcrowder]

Fair enough Jim, but show me a SINGLE instance where the rulebook tells us to do something based upon the reason a clock was stopped. You won't find one.

It's all based on the rules around when we should START the clock.

[Jim S]

Agreed, but we're trying to point out to the "unbelievers" why we use the rules that we both agree are the ones pertinent to the play.
The reason we stop the clock in this case IS an important part of that explanation and can't be ignored. And it is a valid point to remember, not ignore, on any play. Since sometimes the reason we stopped the clock can be the determining factor about which timing rule we use.
The main point being, never ignore a part of a play. Therein lies the slippery slope to making an error.

BTW, wouldn't the ball going OB qualify for your question? The rule for starting the clock afterwards is based on why it was stopped.

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 28th, 2005 at 04:43 PM]

[mcrowder]

This may be the extreme picking of nits, and for that I apologize.

But the reasons given by the rulebook for starting the clock on the snap or on the RFP all deal with what happened to end the previous play, and not specifically on what stopped the clock. The difference is minute, and in many cases, the reason the previous play ended and the reason the clock stopped are the same. But there IS a difference, and it is that minute difference that is causing a few of our posters (even some of the more knowledgeable ones) to rule incorrectly in this case.

I'm not saying IGNORE (or if I did, I'm amending!) the previous play - I'm saying to FOCUS in the reason we start the clock on the RFP or the snap instead of the reason it stopped in the first place.

[Daryl H. Long]

Whether the clock starts on the ready for play or snap is ALWAYS determined by why the clock was stopped on the previous down.

Anytime there is a scrimmage kick which crosses the neutral zone and is touched or grounded and the ball becomes dead there the clock will next start on the SNAP no matter what scenario or combination of fouls, loose ball, change of possessions anyone can dream up.

PERIOD