When does the clock start? (NF)

[Forksref]

Someone kindly explain what an "illegal procedure" foul is.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by whaddayouknow

Good comment. It sent me back, to the rule book. Now I think I need further clarification on why it does not start on the snap.

In this scenario above, if there had been no penalty, I believe it states the clock would start with the snap (Rule 3, Art 3) if either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick (item c). Since that is the "status" of the clock had there been no penalty, shouldn't that also be the "status" of the clock after enforcement of the penalty.

I'm still new and don't know if I'm experienced enough to argue yet. I'm just trying to understand.

Let me reword the previous item and create "Scenario B" just for clarification: On fourth and 10 third and 2 with two and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter, the clock is running and A throws an incomplete pass. The linesman had a live ball foul illegal procedure on the play, so B elects to replay the down with A penalized 5 yards.

In this scenario B, wouldn't the clock start on the snap because that was the "status" of the clock had there been no penalty? I know the original scenario had the "award of a new series" wiped off with the penalty, but didn't Scenario B also have the incomplete pass wiped off with the penalty? Can anyone provide additional rule references I might be missing?

It makes absolutely no difference what would have happened if there had no been a penalty. The fact is that there is a penalty. Neither team is awarded a new series, 4th down is replayed. Therefore, the clock starts on the ready.

As for the rule, there's only one rule that you need. Read it and ask yourself if any of these issues applies.

3-4-3
The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

a. The ball goes out of bounds. No
b. B is awarded a new series. No
c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick. No
d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line. No
e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete. No
f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted. No
g. A period ends. No
h. A team attempts to consume time illegally. No
i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted. No

A new series is NOT awarded. Clock starts on the ready.



[Edited by BktBallRef on Sep 25th, 2005 at 11:20 AM]

[whaddayouknow]

I think it is starting to click and just want to make sure.

In the original scenario, a new series could have only been awarded after the play was completed, if all the conditions for a new series were met. Since there was a penalty during the play, the new series was not award after the play ended. This is why it still starts on the ready.

In my scenario "B", there was an incomplete pass during the live ball, therefore in scenario B the clock would properly start on the snap.

Correct?

[BulldogMcC]

5-1-2 A new series of downs is awarded:
(a) After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul by B.
(b) After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.

So no, a first down is not awarded until after the penalty is considered and unless one of the other things that stop the clock that were listed above occur to cause the ball to become dead, the clock starts on the ready in this situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by whaddayouknow
I think it is starting to click and just want to make sure.

In the original scenario, a new series could have only been awarded after the play was completed, if all the conditions for a new series were met. Since there was a penalty during the play, the new series was not award after the play ended. This is why it still starts on the ready.

In my scenario "B", there was an incomplete pass during the live ball, therefore in scenario B the clock would properly start on the snap.

Correct?

You own it!

[SoGARef]

BktBallRef, I have to ask. What was a North Carolina official doing calling a varisity HS game in Florida? I am a Georgia official who called varsity HS games in Florida several years ago. There was one school in a county that borders Georgia that was displeased with the officiating association in Florida and elected to us our association out of Georgia. There are some minor differences between Georgia and Florida in the mechanics of the game administration and overtime procedures. All games we called used Georgia mechanics and overtime procedures. Georgia used to use an overtime procedure that would take a Philadelphia lawyer to explain. They finally went to a modified NCAA overtime procedure starting at the 15 instead of the 25 two years ago.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by SoGARef
BktBallRef, I have to ask. What was a North Carolina official doing calling a varisity HS game in Florida?

Read the first three words in the opening post-

"From another forum:"

[CBrockett]

This was my game. We started it on the ready. I think it should have started it on the snap. I brought that to my referees attention, and he said no.

The question is what stopped the clock. Two things did. The first one is, Awarding of a new series for A after a legal kick, and of course the penalty.

The officials who start the clock on the ready, usually state that if the ball went OOB, and B accepts the penaly, they would start the clock on the snap.

Personally, I don't see the difference between the stopping the clock because it went out of bounds, and stopping the clock because you awarding a new series after a legal kick.

Cbrockett

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by CBrockett
This was my game. We started it on the ready. I think it should have started it on the snap. I brought that to my referees attention, and he said no.

The question is what stopped the clock. Two things did. The first one is, Awarding of a new series for A after a legal kick, and of course the penalty.

The officials who start the clock on the ready, usually state that if the ball went OOB, and B accepts the penaly, they would start the clock on the snap.

Personally, I don't see the difference between the stopping the clock because it went out of bounds, and stopping the clock because you awarding a new series after a legal kick.

Cbrockett

But you don't award a new series to A until after considering the penalty, so you don't stop the clock to award A a new series, you have stopped the clock to administer the penalty. Therefore, no team has been awarded a first down after a legal kick, because you never get to the awarding because you administer the penalty first.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by CBrockett
Personally, I don't see the difference between the stopping the clock because it went out of bounds, and stopping the clock because you awarding a new series after a legal kick.

Easy - the difference is that you did not award a new series.

Simplify the situation. 4th and 8. Runner runs 5 yards , but there's a 5-yard foul on the defense. Clock stopped to administer the penalty (and for the apparent new series, just as in your sitch). After the penalty is enforced, it turns out there is NO new series (just as in your sitch). Clock on the snap or the RFP?

RFP, of course. Just like in your sitch.

[Edited by mcrowder on Sep 26th, 2005 at 10:29 AM]

[CBrockett]

Bad example McCrowder... in both situations the clock starts on the ready....

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Here's what seems to be confusing a lot of people. A change of possession during the down and the awarding of a new series to B are two distinct things.

Unless, you ultimately set up the stakes first and ten for B, you have not awarded B a new series.

The NCAA rule is different. There you will start on the snap if you stop the clock for an apparent new series for B even if a penalty during the down eventually negates the new series. but in Fed, you must actually award the new series.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by CBrockett
Personally, I don't see the difference between the stopping the clock because it went out of bounds, and stopping the clock because you awarding a new series after a legal kick.

This is where you're confused.

We aren't talking about STOPPING the clock. We're talkling about STARTING it.

Since you DO NOT award a new series to either team, the clock STARTS on the ready.

Had you awarded a new series it would START on the SNAP, but WE DID NOT AWARD A NEW SERIES.

It's that simple.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by CBrockett
Bad example McCrowder... in both situations the clock starts on the ready....

Really? Is this one of those crazy Fedlandia rules, or a mistake on the poster's part? You don't really start on the ready after a change of possession do you?

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by Bob M.

The NCAA rule is different. There you will start on the snap if you stop the clock for an apparent new series for B even if a penalty during the down eventually negates the new series.

Bob, I don't believe that is correct. (And if it is, I have a bad habit to unlearn!)

4th and 1, defense stops the offense, but facemasks. Apparent new series for B, but as it turns out, just a 1st down for A after the penalty is walked off. Clock starts on the RFP, not the snap, even though you had an "apparent" new series for B.