When does the clock start? (NF)

BktBallRef · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 09:55am

From another forum:

"This past week, I had a Varsity game in the State of Florida (Federation rules). On fourth and 10 with two and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter K kick the ball and it touched beyond the expanded neutral zone and muffed by R and recovered by K. The linesman had a live ball foul illegal procedure on the play, so R elects to raplay the down with K penalized 5 yards.

Here is what Happened,a nd I am sure we got it wrong, but my white cap is bull headed about having the play right. He elected to start the clock on the ready for play. I stopped the clock and ran to the ref and questioned him about starting on the ready, I thought it should start on the snap, because the result of the preceding play dictated a starting on the snap. He negated my question and said it should start on the ready. I then brought to his attention the first down clock rule.... if on first down of a new series the A team commits a foul and the down is replayed... the clock runs as governed by the flagged first down play. Still he is adament on starting on the ready."

When does the clock start, on the ready or on the snap?

whaddayouknow · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 10:09am

The clock should start on the ready if the action which caused the down to end did not cause the clock to be stopped.

In the play mentioned here, I believe that this was not a change of possession, so the clock would have been started on the ready if there had been no penalty. Subsequently, after the penalty was enforced, I believe the clock should still begin on the ready.

andy1033 · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 10:36am

Start clock on RFP

BktBallRef · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 11:15am

Thanks. I agree but the guys on the other forum did not agree with me. No new series is awarded in this play.

whaddayouknow · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 11:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
...the other forum did not agree.

What? Was it a coach's forum.

MJT · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 12:02pm

RFP as no new series was awarded.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by whaddayouknow

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
...the other forum did not agree.

What? Was it a coach's forum.

Nope. An football officials forum.

ljudge · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 01:02pm

I believe it should start on the snap. If a foul hadn't occurred it would have been a start of a new series following a legal scrimmage kick. I realize it didn't happen that way, but technically, the "result of the play" was just that even though no new series was awarded due to the foul.

schwinn · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 01:15pm

On the RFP. Read 3-4-2, 3, 4.

Jim S · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 01:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by whaddayouknow
The clock should start on the ready if the action which caused the down to end did not cause the clock to be stopped.

In the play mentioned here, I believe that this was not a change of possession, so the clock would have been started on the ready if there had been no penalty. Subsequently, after the penalty was enforced, I believe the clock should still begin on the ready.

Gentlemen, do NOT get to thinking about "change of possession". Fed timing rules do not have a change of possession (apparent or actual) section as NCAA does. You may have several changes of possession during a down and the clock will start on the RFP, or the snap, depending on why the down ended, whether there was a legal kick during the down, whether there was an IW (that is not ignored), did the ball go OB, in the EZ, etc.
But change of possession is not mentioned in the NF timing rules.

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 05:01pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ljudge
I believe it should start on the snap. If a foul hadn't occurred it would have been a start of a new series following a legal scrimmage kick. I realize it didn't happen that way, but technically, the "result of the play" was just that even though no new series was awarded due to the foul.

Sorry but you're misreading the rule.

The rule says "The clock shall start with the snap if the clock was stopped because either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." It doesn't say the clock starts on the ready if it was stopped to award a team a new series. It starts on the snap if you ACTALLY AWARD THE NEW SERIES. Otherwise, the end of the play dictates when the clock is started. Since this was a play that end with a run inbounds, and neither team is awarded a new series, the clock starts on the ready.

ljudge · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 06:56pm

I guess see your point, BBR. I'm not being stubborn or even disagree with you. For some reason it simply didn't sound right going on the RFP.

BktBallRef · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Sep 24, 2005, 08:51pm

No problem. The other folks were making the same mistake.

It's odd but in this sitch, what happens on the next play does play a part in when you start the clock.

JugglingReferee · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 25, 2005, 07:04am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
From another forum:

"This past week, I had a Varsity game in the State of Florida (Federation rules). On fourth and 10 with two and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter K kick the ball and it touched beyond the expanded neutral zone and muffed by R and recovered by K. The linesman had a live ball foul illegal procedure on the play, so R elects to raplay the down with K penalized 5 yards.

Here is what Happened,a nd I am sure we got it wrong, but my white cap is bull headed about having the play right. He elected to start the clock on the ready for play. I stopped the clock and ran to the ref and questioned him about starting on the ready, I thought it should start on the snap, because the result of the preceding play dictated a starting on the snap. He negated my question and said it should start on the ready. I then brought to his attention the first down clock rule.... if on first down of a new series the A team commits a foul and the down is replayed... the clock runs as governed by the flagged first down play. Still he is adament on starting on the ready."

When does the clock start, on the ready or on the snap?

On the snap, becuase we had a penalty application after the 3 minute warning. In the odd event that with 2.5 minutes left, and the 3mw has not yet been given, start on the ready.

whaddayouknow · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 25, 2005, 07:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim S
Gentlemen, do NOT get to thinking about "change of possession". Fed timing rules do not have a change of possession (apparent or actual) section as NCAA does.

Good comment. It sent me back, to the rule book. Now I think I need further clarification on why it does not start on the snap.

In this scenario above, if there had been no penalty, I believe it states the clock would start with the snap (Rule 3, Art 3) if either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick (item c). Since that is the "status" of the clock had there been no penalty, shouldn't that also be the "status" of the clock after enforcement of the penalty.

I'm still new and don't know if I'm experienced enough to argue yet. I'm just trying to understand.

Let me reword the previous item and create "Scenario B" just for clarification: On ~~fourth and 10~~ third and 2 with two and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter, the clock is running and A throws an incomplete pass. The linesman had a live ball foul illegal procedure on the play, so B elects to replay the down with A penalized 5 yards.

In this scenario B, wouldn't the clock start on the snap because that was the "status" of the clock had there been no penalty? I know the original scenario had the "award of a new series" wiped off with the penalty, but didn't Scenario B also have the incomplete pass wiped off with the penalty? Can anyone provide additional rule references I might be missing?