When does the clock start? (NF)

[SoGARef]

Sorry about that BBR. I totally missed the first sentence.

[cmathews]

from the approved rulings 2005 NCAA rules

3-2-5-III

Fourth and four. Team A's running play, which ends inbounds, gains (a)...(b) three yards. B1 is offside durning the play. Ruling (a)...(b) Team A's ball. First and 10 after accepting the penalty. The clock starts on the snap.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by SoGARef
Sorry about that BBR. I totally missed the first sentence.

No problem.

[Jim S]

Bob is corect. NCAA timing rules recognize the "apparent change of possession" Whenever you stop the clock for this situation, even if there is a foul enforced that negates the COP, you start on the snap.

[CBrockett]

Ya I made a mistake... I thought the reult of the play with and without the penalty resulted in a first down for A. You are correct the result of the play you describe results in a new series for B.

Sorry about my error.

[Jim S]

Let me take some time to try to explain to those who are having some problem with this timing situation.
The first thing is that the timing rules are an integrated set of rules. Each one does not necessarily stand by itself.
To illustrate this let's take the following.
1. 4th & 6 at the K 43.
K kicks a scrimage kick to the B 20 where:
a. The ball becomes dead on the ground untouched by any player.
b. The ball is caught by B1 and run to the 25 where he runs OB.
c. The ball is caught by B1 who runs to the 25 and is tackled.
d. The ball is caught by B1 and run to the 25 where he fumbles the ball and the ball is recovered by A1 who is tackled immediately.

2. Same play but there is a 5 yard non-PSK foul on B.
Same situations a-d.

3. Same play but there is a 15 yard non-PSK foul on B.
Same situations a-d.

The first question to ask is why did we stop the clock?
In a, b, & c the clock is stopped because there was a change of team possession during the down. (3.5.7c)This is an OFICIAL'S TIME-OUT.
In b the clock is stopped first because the runner took the ball OB.(3.4.3a) This is action that ends the down ND stops the clock.
Now when do we start the clock after an official's T.O.? On the RFP. EXCEPT WHEN B IS AWARDED A NEW SERIES, OR EITHER TEAM IS AWARDED A NEW SERIES FOLLOWING A LEGAL KICK. In a,c,& d we award one of the teams a new series after a legal kick. Therefore we will start the clock on the snap.

Now let's take play 2 where we have the 5 yard penalty.
We still stop the clock in b because the ball went OB. But, in a, c, & d. the clock is stopped because the down ended after a foul. (3.4.4a) [This is also an official's T.O. 3.5.7j]. Note that the clock stoppage rules only talk about why & when the clock shall stop, not about when it will start again.
In a,b,&c K may take the penalty which would give them a 4th & 1 from the K 48. In d. they will undoubtably take the result of the play which will give them a 1st & 10 from the B25.
Whem will we start the clock for these situations?
In a & c we have no situations for which the clock was stopped that require the clock to be started on the snap. (ie: neither team was awarded was awarded a new series, the action that ended the down did not stop the clock, etc.) [Let's take a second to reiterate that a change of possession is NOT action that causes the clcok to stop!!! If it was all plays would become dead the instant that there was a change of possession and we know that this isn't so]
Therefore in a & c we will start on the RFP.
For b. The ball went OB causing the clock to stop before the official's T.O. to administer the foul, so by rule (3.4.3a) the clock starts on the snap. Note that this is also "action that cause the ball to become dead and also causes the clock to stop. Other such action is the ball becoming dead behind a goal line, a legal (or illegal) forward pass being incomplete)
In d. K will again take the result of the play, be awarded a new series and the clcok will start with the snap.

Now for the 15 yard penalty. In all the situations listed the clock will start on the snap. WHY? Because no matter what choices are made either K or R will be awarded a new series after a legal kick. (Or actually in the case of b. because the ball went OB. This still happened first)

The point of all this is so that you recognize that we stop the clcok for a variety of reasons. Some of them are official's T.O.s and cause the clock to start on the RFP (unless there are other rules that THEN kick in). Some of them, such as going OB, are reasons that stop the clock on their own BEFORE any other reasons. These will always cause the clock to stay stopped until the snap.

You must first determine why the clcok is stopped.(3.4.4 or 3.5.7)
Then determine if one of the reasons to keep it stopped (3.4.2 a1,2,3 or 3.4.3) applies.
If they don't you will start on the RFP.

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 26th, 2005 at 05:54 PM]

[cmathews]

Originally posted by Jim S

In d. K will again take the result of the play, be awarded a new series and the clcok will start on the ready.

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 26th, 2005 at 04:55 PM]

Jim S,
That was a pretty good explanation, I do however disagree with the above portion....in all D situations the clock will start with the snap as A will be awarded a new series after a legal kick.....

[mcrowder]

Can't wait to discuss this one in pregame tonight... and Thursday... and Friday... and Saturday... and next week. I am positive I'm not the only one doing this wrong.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by cmathews

Jim S,
That was a pretty good explanation, I do however disagree with the above portion....in all D situations the clock will start with the snap as A will be awarded a new series after a legal kick.....

Yep I screwed up. On the snap is what I meant to say.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Can't wait to discuss this one in pregame tonight... and Thursday... and Friday... and Saturday... and next week. I am positive I'm not the only one doing this wrong.

I get a little passionate right now about the timing rules. I was in a state semi last year when we had a play where B intercepted, but didn't get it with clean hands. After the penalty gave A a new series my R says "We start on the snap." I tell him "No. We start on the ready." "You sure?" "Yep"
The reason I was so sure is that we had just spent a week on the boards discussing these types of plays.
The problem was that the two evaluators dinged me several points for being in error on the timing rules (They both kept quoting NCAA terms (apparent COP, etc. [one of them even wanted to say that a change of possession was action that also stopped the clock! I just had to ask "How do we manage to have runbacks if the COP stops the clock?"]
Of course I also lost a couple of points for being "acerbic" to the evaluators..... Just because I asked them to go back and read the FEDERATION rulebook!

[CBrockett]

I have never seen an official stop the clock after a legal kick and give the official's timeout signal.

The fact that you are missing; The clock stops in those situations to award a new series after a legal kick.

Start the clock on the snap.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by CBrockett
I have never seen an official stop the clock after a legal kick and give the official's timeout signal.

The fact that you are missing; The clock stops in those situations to award a new series after a legal kick.

Start the clock on the snap.

Well now you're just being stubborn, and wrong.

You're convinced, so much so that you can't see the forest for the trees, and you're not even considering what anyone else has to say. That's stubborn, close minded and wrong.

WE ARE NOT AWARDING A NEW SERIES!!!!!!! Can't you get that through your head? If we were, it would start on the snap. BUT WE AREN'T!!

The clock starts on the ready.

I'm done.

[Jim S]

CB, NOWHERE in the rulebook does it say to stop the clock to award a new series. It does say not to start it IF you award a new series. But that is not why we stop it.
The reasons to stop the clock are listed in 3.4.4 and a couple of others.

The rule you are quoting is 3.4.3b,c. But this rule only tells you when not to start the clock until the snap AFTER you have stopped it for one of the reasons in 3.4.4 (or elsewhere)
The last point is that the rule says don't start until the snap when a new series IS awarded. Not when you you might awarded one if something else hadn't happened. If you don't award a new series, that rule doesn't apply because the situation hasn't been met.
Note also that declaring a first down does not always keep the clock dead. It is always an officia's T.O. per 3.5.7b but only in the two circumstances in 3.4.3 do we keep the clock stopped.

BTW, under which rule do we stop the clock when the ball carrier takes the ball beyond the line-to-gain? And what is the reason given for doing so?

[Edited by Jim S on Sep 27th, 2005 at 11:34 AM]

[mikesears]

First we need to know how/when a new series is awarded. Here is the pertinent rule.


3-1-2: A new series is awarded:

b. After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.

Then we need to look at the timing rule on when to START the clock.


3-4-2: The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped:

a. For an official’s time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

The question in the play is this. Was either team awarded a new series? The effect of R fouling and K deciding to replay the down means that niether team wasawarded a new series of downs (per rule). Thus, clock starts on the ready-for-play.

[ljudge]

Thanks to all of you who have been persistent in all of this. I was thinking previously on the snap before this post but understand what you're all saying, and it makes sense.

So, thank you!