Disqualification

[Rich]

Originally posted by waltjp

Ahhh...those coaches.

Reminds me of two quick stories.

First, doing a kids game a couple of years ago, the coach comes out during a time out and complains to me and the rest of the crew about talking to his players. What we were telling the players was to walk away after the play without taunting and to be careful with the late hits. The coach insisted that we not talk to his players. Okay, next time we'll flag them first, then warn them.

Just this past weekend, I flag and DQ a B player for kicking an opponent who was lying on the ground. The coach and player complain, "He was tackling him." I reply, "Coach, it couldn't have been much of a tackle if he's on the ground and you're player is standing over him and kicking him."

I will not tolerate a coach "telling" me not to talk to his players. Too much of that and the coach won't be around to hear me talking to his players. Some of these coaches think we are just hired help to be pushed around. Don't think so.

--Rich

[Rich]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

I will not tolerate a coach "telling" me not to talk to his players. Too much of that and the coach won't be around to hear me talking to his players. Some of these coaches think we are just hired help to be pushed around. Don't think so.

--Rich

Here's an email I got this morning from the OP. I refrained from posting emails I got yesterday because I normally won't post private emails, but I think you should see the mentality of this coach:

This goes right to the heart of the discussion. No, I am not looking for
anyone to agree with me, I am looking for understanding more of the
mindset of officials, and quite frankly, you've given me a perfect
understanding of at least one of them. You have shown me that rules have
no meaning for you until they become personal. If the player was
swearing, by rule, he should have received his first personal foul; the
second time would have warranted ejection. Is that not what the rules
state? No, but for you, my friend, when it became personal is when you
decided to take something out of your pants. Officials like you give
officiating a bad rep, and I am sorry for that. I don't know you, nor do
I really care to, but it is quite obvious that you are officiating for
all the wrong reasons. You don't know me, and I really don't care for
you to either. I know the motivation that I have for working with the
youth of our city, and it is to make better citizens of them. People
like you hamper that honest work. Yes, they are lovable youngsters when
they are given a fair shake and see that the adults around them play by
the same rules.
-----------------------------

What he fails to understand is that I was trying to be preventive in getting the kids to stop the swearing. I stepped across the neutral zone and warned the kids to clean up their mouths. Then a kid backs me down and tells me to mind my own damned business and I shouldn't flag that?

I asked the OP how he would react if a kid did that to him, BTW, but I get the impression that he feels we're all just hired help and he's the one who's doing all the work. Sad, really, but his mentality is typical of today's youth coaches, at least from my perspective.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Oct 19th, 2004 at 12:39 PM]

[wolfpup27]

I think that we both, as officials and coaches, have an attitude that lacks a mutual respect, and that is a shame. Moreover because I beleive that there are only a few coaches and a few officials that give each a bad rep. Contrary to what Mr. Fronheiser believes, I am a coach that was trying to understand a ruling, and that is why I came to this forum. Yes, I am a youth coach, and have been for 15 years and love it. Why? Because know that I am making a difference in the lives of these kids. I hate it when I see other adults in their lives hindering that work. I have greatly appreciated the well thought out responses that I have received in helping me to understand this situation a little bit better. To the others that have not been quite so constructive... well, I'll leave that up to your own personal conscience, ah... judgment.

Thank you!

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by PSU213

First, based on what you said, I don't think the LJ said what happened was "automatically" flagrant.

In addition, none of us saw the play. It was, indeed, a judgement call on his part, and without seeing the play, none of us can confirm or refute the validity of this call.

Also, if the official said it was flagrant because of "the rule that says if the elbow is locked, the block is worthy of a DQ" then he would be wrong on the rule, but he is not misapplying a rule that does not exsit; he is "correctly" applying the fake rule (if you can correctly apply a rule that does not exist!?).

Finally, the issue with consistency. In the NFL it is relatively "easy" to have consistency in the calls. If the league decides that if one swear word slips out of a player's mouth it is only a warning, then it is fairly easy to make sure that different officials will not flag it. In contrast, I don't find using "damn" to be an offense worthy of a foul, but an official in North Dakota (I'm in Pennsylvania) might believe it comes at a cost of 15 yards. At this level, there is going to be some amount of consistency within an association, but between different areas, there are going to be different ideas on judgement calls.

I have to thank you because your reply has made the most sense and is very genuine and sincere.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by BulldogMcC
If you don't trust an officials judgement, don't let them officiate your games. Every official uses their observations, experience, knowledge and wisdom on every call. From the posts here and over at NFHS it sounds like the LJ was justifying his flagrant determination by stating the defender had locked out his elbow therefor throwing a strike at his opponent and not just slapping at the helmet. I know that when I describe a flagrant personal foul to my R, he wants to know what made it flagrant because he has to agree it is flagrant to DQ around here. We both then go explain what happened to the coach of the player that is ejected. You cannot just say, "Coach, # 74 open hand to the helmet and it was flagrant." You have to be able to explain what made it flagrant. In this case, I am suposing that the LJ was justifying his flagrant judgement by stating it was not just an open hand to the helmet, but the defender extended the arm and locked out the elbow when making the contact.

Thank you, this has been very constructive.

wolfpup27

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser



I will not tolerate a coach "telling" me not to talk to his players. Too much of that and the coach won't be around to hear me talking to his players. Some of these coaches think we are just hired help to be pushed around. Don't think so.

--Rich

Here's an email I got this morning from the OP. I refrained from posting emails I got yesterday because I normally won't post private emails, but I think you should see the mentality of this coach:

This goes right to the heart of the discussion. No, I am not looking for
anyone to agree with me, I am looking for understanding more of the
mindset of officials, and quite frankly, you've given me a perfect
understanding of at least one of them. You have shown me that rules have
no meaning for you until they become personal. If the player was
swearing, by rule, he should have received his first personal foul; the
second time would have warranted ejection. Is that not what the rules
state? No, but for you, my friend, when it became personal is when you
decided to take something out of your pants. Officials like you give
officiating a bad rep, and I am sorry for that. I don't know you, nor do
I really care to, but it is quite obvious that you are officiating for
all the wrong reasons. You don't know me, and I really don't care for
you to either. I know the motivation that I have for working with the
youth of our city, and it is to make better citizens of them. People
like you hamper that honest work. Yes, they are lovable youngsters when
they are given a fair shake and see that the adults around them play by
the same rules.
-----------------------------

What he fails to understand is that I was trying to be preventive in getting the kids to stop the swearing. I stepped across the neutral zone and warned the kids to clean up their mouths. Then a kid backs me down and tells me to mind my own damned business and I shouldn't flag that?

I asked the OP how he would react if a kid did that to him, BTW, but I get the impression that he feels we're all just hired help and he's the one who's doing all the work. Sad, really, but his mentality is typical of today's youth coaches, at least from my perspective.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Oct 19th, 2004 at 12:39 PM]

Recently, in an extremely competitive 13-14 year old game between two crosstown rivals a player started trash talking and I flagged him. It took both my fellow officials to come between me and the coach who too offense to my flag -- most uncharacteristic of me and somewhat shameful.

Later in the game the same player started the trash again only this time I walked to the huddle with him and used a phrase a popular local official once used, "You are too good of a player to get a foul like that" and tried to settle him down.

Again, this "coach" wanted to know why I was in his huddle.

The answer was simple, trying to save his player, a good player at that.

I could have just thrown the flag, disqualified the player and be done with it. But it was obvious coaching was lacking and the player had talent that needed it. Throwing the flag was simple and easy but trying to impress on this young man took time and effort.

Later when the same player intercepted a pass and returned it 60-yards for a touchdown the response was a simple score followed by placing the ball in the end zone. Like I told him, his playing did the talking.

The player was extremely pleased with his performance as it was all over his face.

Do I do my job? I think so. I could have gone strictly by the book and flagged him and sent him home resentful of authority. I did not get any monetary reward from holding the flag and taking the time but the reward to me was more personal and much more rewarding.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Here's an email I got this morning from the OP. I refrained from posting emails I got yesterday because I normally won't post private emails, but I think you should see the mentality of this coach:

This goes right to the heart of the discussion. No, I am not looking for
anyone to agree with me, I am looking for understanding more of the
mindset of officials, and quite frankly, you've given me a perfect
understanding of at least one of them. You have shown me that rules have
no meaning for you until they become personal. If the player was
swearing, by rule, he should have received his first personal foul; the
second time would have warranted ejection. Is that not what the rules
state? No, but for you, my friend, when it became personal is when you
decided to take something out of your pants. Officials like you give
officiating a bad rep, and I am sorry for that. I don't know you, nor do
I really care to, but it is quite obvious that you are officiating for
all the wrong reasons. You don't know me, and I really don't care for
you to either. I know the motivation that I have for working with the
youth of our city, and it is to make better citizens of them. People
like you hamper that honest work. Yes, they are lovable youngsters when
they are given a fair shake and see that the adults around them play by
the same rules.
-----------------------------

What he fails to understand is that I was trying to be preventive in getting the kids to stop the swearing. I stepped across the neutral zone and warned the kids to clean up their mouths. Then a kid backs me down and tells me to mind my own damned business and I shouldn't flag that?

I asked the OP how he would react if a kid did that to him, BTW, but I get the impression that he feels we're all just hired help and he's the one who's doing all the work. Sad, really, but his mentality is typical of today's youth coaches, at least from my perspective.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Oct 19th, 2004 at 12:39 PM]

Point of clarification here, if I may: this is what Rich originally said to me about his recent ejection:

I threw a kid out on Saturday for telling me to "mind my own damned business" after I was polite enough to warn the team about the repeated f-bombs they were tossing. Darling children :-)

--Rich

I responded:

BTW: If a player is swearing, penalize him. On the second offense disqualify him. Follow your rules (9-5), not just because a kid hurt your feelings. Be professional, not polite. Flag them for every "f-bomb" they drop and if you can pin it on a specific player, toss him according to the rules. I think your example here is a perfect indication that at least one official tosses players on a whim.

Rich responded:

The last sentence seems to imply that I ejected that kid on a whim. You clearly don't read well as I certainly did warn the lovable youngsters and the player that was ejected only was ejected after he (1) swore at me and (2) told me to mind my own damned business.

I responded:

This goes right to the heart of the discussion. No, I am not looking for anyone to agree with me, I am looking for understanding more of the mindset of officials, and quite frankly, you've given me a perfect understanding of at least one of them. You have shown me that rules have no meaning for you until they become personal. If the player was swearing, by rule, he should have received his first personal foul; the second time would have warranted ejection. Is that not what the rules state? No, but for you, my friend, when it became personal is when you decided to take something out of your pants. Officials like you give officiating a bad rep, and I am sorry for that. I don't know you, nor do I really care to, but it is quite obvious that you are officiating for all the wrong reasons. You don't know me, and I really don't care for you to either. I know the motivation that I have for working with the youth of our city, and it is to make better citizens of them. People like you hamper that honest work. Yes, they are lovable youngsters when they are given a fair shake and see that the adults around them play by the same rules.

Rich responded:

A curse word is not a personal foul, BTW. An official is entitled to use preventive officiating to stop actions before they result in penalties. But when a kid backs an official down and swears directly at the official, there's a difference.

Let me ask you this, Mr. Head Coach: If a kid did to you exactly what he did to me -- come towards you, get in your face and tell you to MYODB, would you bench the kid? Do you think I deserve less respect than a coach? Like it or not, that's just the way I see it.

Please don't respond.

But, I actually did respond:

Rich, you know that I do greatly appreciate your responding to my questions. And I truly believe that these forums are extremely constructive in helping to understand not only the rules, but the mindset of the people that we come in contact with every week. It helps me to understand your thinking as an official, and hopefully, you can learn something about coaches.

I beg to differ with you, "dropping an f-bomb" as you put it, is unsportsmanlike conduct, is it not? Is that not a penalty? I know in our league, and even in our state, such obscenities will be flagged because we have a mandated sportsmanship policy. To answer your question, yes, I would bench him, and I have even suspended a player for his actions, even removed him from the team. I know and understand these players way better than any official does on the field, because I work with them everyday. In this particular case, if that player was mine, and you had not ejected him, he would be buffing the pines, because I don't tolerate that type of behavior. I am sorry that there are not more coaches that have that philosophy. You had the opportunity to quell the storm by flagging it earlier, but you chose not to, until a player got up in your face and made it personal. You were both wrong, and until we come to that realization, I suspect that there will be continued ejections along this line because no one is teaching both the players and the adults; coaches and officials included.

Case in point; this season I had one of my players ejected because he threw a punch. It just so happened to be one of my starting defensive linemen and son of one of my assistant coaches. I saw the incident; happened right in front of me. Did I get all over the referee? No, I got all over the player and my coach for questioning the call. Both of them argued with me that the other player was hitting him while he was down. My teaching point was that there is nothing that another player does that deserves to have a punch thrown at him; end of discussion. That is what I teach my own children, that there is nothing that anything that anyone does to you that deserves your retaliation. Does that stand to good reason?

Sorry, that this has been such a long response/posting, but I thought that I owed it to those that were positively contributing to its success to know the whole story here, and not taken out of context. Thank you again, one and all for your help. Yes, even you, Rich.

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Recently, in an extremely competitive 13-14 year old game between two crosstown rivals a player started trash talking and I flagged him. It took both my fellow officials to come between me and the coach who too offense to my flag -- most uncharacteristic of me and somewhat shameful.

Later in the game the same player started the trash again only this time I walked to the huddle with him and used a phrase a popular local official once used, "You are too good of a player to get a foul like that" and tried to settle him down.

Again, this "coach" wanted to know why I was in his huddle.

The answer was simple, trying to save his player, a good player at that.

I could have just thrown the flag, disqualified the player and be done with it. But it was obvious coaching was lacking and the player had talent that needed it. Throwing the flag was simple and easy but trying to impress on this young man took time and effort.

Later when the same player intercepted a pass and returned it 60-yards for a touchdown the response was a simple score followed by placing the ball in the end zone. Like I told him, his playing did the talking.

The player was extremely pleased with his performance as it was all over his face.

Do I do my job? I think so. I could have gone strictly by the book and flagged him and sent him home resentful of authority. I did not get any monetary reward from holding the flag and taking the time but the reward to me was more personal and much more rewarding.

Ed - This is a great story and I am glad to hear of your success. As a coach, I know I would be appreciative of that extra effort. It was apparent that at least the player was receptive of your efforts. In some cases this would not be a success story, and one that may have had a different outcome. I think your wisdom prevailed here, unlike some other stories that I have heard that appear to have created ire and resentfullness of authority. Keep up the good work!

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally posted by waltjp
Just this past weekend, I flag and DQ a B player for kicking an opponent who was lying on the ground. The coach and player complain, "He was tackling him." I reply, "Coach, it couldn't have been much of a tackle if he's on the ground and you're player is standing over him and kicking him."

This would be one of those times that I'd have to bite back the witty, but unprofessional, response: "Coach, if that's how you're teaching your kids to tackle, you need to look for a new line of work."

[chiefgil]

What was the player's action during the game?
How many times was he warned?
Was he a typical rough player, or was he trying to hurt someone?

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by chiefgil
What was the player's action during the game?
How many times was he warned?
Was he a typical rough player, or was he trying to hurt someone?

This penalty came near the end of the first quarter. The player is the starting quarterback, and the weak side ILB. He was fighting through a block where the OT was holding his jersey near his collar. He did a swim move to chop down the hand and in the process the heel of his hand hit the bottom edge of the OT's facemask. As he was picking up back side pursuit he felt the flag hit him on the leg. During the explaination from the referee, the LJ stated that he "is calling this as a flagrant violation because his arm was extened and elbow locked." He, nor any other player was warned, previous to this incident. He is not a rough player, but uses the tools he has been taught to play football. He's 5'10", 160 lbs. The player who was holding him is 6'6", 250 lbs. He is an exemplary player, and has been since he was 9-years old (he's now a senior in high school). Football is his life... that's what makes this such a tragedy. What makes this even more ironic is that our local official's association had just the week before sent a letter of commendation to our AD about the outstanding sportsmanship that this team is showing and that it reflects upon the leadership of the program. This player who was ejected, is that on-field leader. Attitude reflects leadeship, does it not? I know that many reading this are probably saying to themselves, "Yeah right, he's probably a head case and you're just sticking up for him." My experience knows much better than that; there are probably only a handful of these young men that I would go to bat for, and he is one of them. How many players do you know in this day and age are Eagle Scouts, or even particpate in the Scouting program? Very few..? He's the only one on his team. How many players do you now who, after each game, finds his mother in the stands and gives her a kiss of thanks for her support? It's becoming a tradition for many of our players because he led the way. Yet, now because of this incident, this caliber of player is unable to participate in his senior homecoming, against a team that has been his personal rival since his youth football days, the most important game of the season (both teams unbeaten and really unchallenged in the league), and has state play-off implications. We have consoled this player with, "We have to accept the official's judgement." Now, the statement that the official made on the Conduct Report is completely different than what was explained to the coach, and the player on the sideline. We have to trust and accept his judgement, even though the story changes from moment to moment... sounds like another flip-flopper that we have all come to know and love over the past several months...

[jjrye22]

Originally posted by wolfpup27
I beg to differ with you, "dropping an f-bomb" as you put it, is unsportsmanlike conduct, is it not? Is that not a penalty? I know in our league, and even in our state, such obscenities will be flagged because we have a mandated sportsmanship policy. To answer your question, yes, I would bench him, and I have even suspended a player for his actions, even removed him from the team. I know and understand these players way better than any official does on the field, because I work with them everyday. In this particular case, if that player was mine, and you had not ejected him, he would be buffing the pines, because I don't tolerate that type of behavior. I am sorry that there are not more coaches that have that philosophy. You had the opportunity to quell the storm by flagging it earlier, but you chose not to, until a player got up in your face and made it personal. You were both wrong, and until we come to that realization, I suspect that there will be continued ejections along this line because no one is teaching both the players and the adults; coaches and officials included.

[/B]

Of course it does depend on the mentality of the people around you. I have read about the refs in Texas letting a lot more slide than in other areas. Where I am (Germany), we let swearing go if it is directed 'inwardly' - cursing at a missed tackle. If it is directed at someone else it should be flagged -I don't like it like that, but they also tell me to hold my flag on celebrating as well (sigh)...

As an example that speaks to talking back to the ref (Rich I believe).
I had a kid doing a bunch of general trash talking, and he got a serious warning from me to settle down, then later in the period their defense muffed a punt and it was recovered by the offense. I was covering and signalled the direction. He looked right at me and gave me the German equivalant of 'Kiss my hairy butt old man'. My flag came out for the UC - but the white hat (I don't know him we were doing a tournament with mixed crews) said not just 15, the kid is DQ'ed. I was surprised, but the team really settled down afterwards.

James

[wolfpup27]

Originally posted by jjrye22

Of course it does depend on the mentality of the people around you. I have read about the refs in Texas letting a lot more slide than in other areas. Where I am (Germany), we let swearing go if it is directed 'inwardly' - cursing at a missed tackle. If it is directed at someone else it should be flagged -I don't like it like that, but they also tell me to hold my flag on celebrating as well (sigh)...

As an example that speaks to talking back to the ref (Rich I believe).
I had a kid doing a bunch of general trash talking, and he got a serious warning from me to settle down, then later in the period their defense muffed a punt and it was recovered by the offense. I was covering and signalled the direction. He looked right at me and gave me the German equivalant of 'Kiss my hairy butt old man'. My flag came out for the UC - but the white hat (I don't know him we were doing a tournament with mixed crews) said not just 15, the kid is DQ'ed. I was surprised, but the team really settled down afterwards.

James [/B]

I agree with all of your stories, and we all have different reference points. In Washington there is zero tolerance in all sports. This past spring one of our high school players slid into home and was tagged hard in the face with the catcher's mit, split his lip. Upon being tagged he said in a low voice (no one in the dugout or stands heard it), "What the hell?" He was immediately ejected. The manager went ballistic, asking the ump how he could apply such a double standard, as this ump talks to the players at bat, saying things like, "STRIKE... c'mon kid, swing that chicken sh** bat!" The ump threw the manager and cleared the stands that had erupted. Our team refused to come out of the dugout and the game was forfeited, not prior to stating that the game was under protest. Of course, the league would not hear the protest because the judgement of the umpire was above appeal, and the player & coach sat out for their ejections. BUT, most importantly of all, the umpire was reprimanded and suspended for the remainder of the season for his conduct. All participants need to be accountable for their actions, and justification for calls, or non-calls, need to be above reproach. Sound judgment is paramount to respect; lack of respect usually comes from bad judgment. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes it is hard to see the inner beauty that someone has until they do something outwardly to show their true character.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by wolfpup27
I agree with all of your stories, and we all have different reference points. In Washington there is zero tolerance in all sports. This past spring one of our high school players slid into home and was tagged hard in the face with the catcher's mit, split his lip. Upon being tagged he said in a low voice (no one in the dugout or stands heard it), "What the hell?" He was immediately ejected. The manager went ballistic, asking the ump how he could apply such a double standard, as this ump talks to the players at bat, saying things like, "STRIKE... c'mon kid, swing that chicken sh** bat!" The ump threw the manager and cleared the stands that had erupted. Our team refused to come out of the dugout and the game was forfeited, not prior to stating that the game was under protest. Of course, the league would not hear the protest because the judgement of the umpire was above appeal, and the player & coach sat out for their ejections. BUT, most importantly of all, the umpire was reprimanded and suspended for the remainder of the season for his conduct. All participants need to be accountable for their actions, and justification for calls, or non-calls, need to be above reproach. Sound judgment is paramount to respect; lack of respect usually comes from bad judgment. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and sometimes it is hard to see the inner beauty that someone has until they do something outwardly to show their true character.

I am curious, if this ump had not ejected this player, was your team still going to complain about the ump's conduct towards players at the plate or was the complaint made only after he made what your team considered a bad call? I don't mean to start anything by refering to the call that way, if he has been instructed to enforce "zero tolerance" then the call was justified. Regardless of "zero tolerance" or the call, if any official speaks to youth athletes that way, the coaches should address it professionally at the game and then report it to the state afterwards, even if all the calls go their way.

Officials are gonna make bad calls, they can miss things, mispercieve things, forget things or misapply things. That is why in football we always communicate so that regardless of the initial signal, we strive to get the call right. Unless there is some bias though, these mistakes should break even over time. Teams that "protest" and refuse to continue play, prevent themselves from winning despite a bad call. They focus on the bad call and not on a strategy to win. I hope the state chewed on the coach and/or AD that decided not to continue play for his/her lack of professionalism and leadership of the youth. Around here, such an act by a coach or an AD would be the same as them submitting their resignation.

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I asked the OP how he would react if a kid did that to him, BTW, but I get the impression that he feels we're all just hired help and he's the one who's doing all the work. Sad, really, but his mentality is typical of today's youth coaches, at least from my perspective.

I would have flagged the kid also but I don't find this type of behavior or coach response to be in any way typical.

You sound too bitter and cynical to effectively work youth sports. Sure, some of the coaches are psychos but they are in the distinct minority. The vast majority are dedicated to the kids and appreciative of the officials contributions to the game.