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Old Sat Jun 26, 2004, 07:17pm
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Ok,
First I hate to reopen a can of worms..oh h*ll who am I fooling cans of worms are fun...At our mechanics clinic in Wyoming this weekend, our asst commisioner called someone at the NFHS...not sure who but here is what they said...they told us to add a sentence to the IW section of the rulebook...the part that was added this year says that an IW is ignored if a penalty is accepted...we added today except in a PSK situation....as of right now (which is subject to change obviously) the IW during a PSK situation is to be replayed.....ok let the barnstorm begin...
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Old Sun Jun 27, 2004, 06:58pm
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Smile Good one for discussion.

Well, I know that if you have a live-ball foul during a down in progress, followed by the inadvertent whistle, then you have the option of ignoring the IW if the penalty is accepted.

According to 2003 NFHS rule 4-2-3-a., if an IW happens during a legal kick, the down is replayed.

In the case of a PSK foul by R, followed by an IW while the kick is still in progress, what you are saying is that the NFHS told your association that the down must be replayed.

I see the rationale. R is not in possession at the end of the down because the kick was still a kick and therefore K is in team possession. One of the 4 requirements for using PSK is that R must be in possession at the end of the down.

Therefore, it sounds like the NFHS has it right (but I would not like to be the poor official who blows the IW when this happens).

[Edited by Mike Simonds on Jun 27th, 2004 at 08:25 PM]
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Old Sun Jun 27, 2004, 07:23pm
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Exclamation 2004 NFHS rule 2-16-2g.

New rule revision for 2004 by the NFHS (from the NFHS website):

2-16-2g: PSK situation starts at the snap (new rule revision) and ends when the kick ends.

(2003 rule stated PSK starts when the kick crosses the expanded neutral zone, making the rule a bit more challenging to administer.)

This should make PSK easier to administer for 2004.

The 4 things needed to apply PSK are:

1. R fouls on R's side of the expanded neutral zone, and
2. R's foul occurs prior to the end of the kick, and,
3. The scrimmage kick ends on R's side of the neutral zone (I assume the unexpanded neutral zone), and
4. R is in possession at the end of the down (Rule 2-16-2-g states that K is not in possession at the end of the down).

In the case of an IW prior to the end of a scrimmage kick, team K is still in possession at that time so therefore according to rule 4-2-3-a, the down is replayed.
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Old Sun Jun 27, 2004, 08:26pm
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the poor IW official

Mike,
I remember some of this discussion from last year centered on where the enforcement spot would be..IE where the kick was when the whistle blows...this weekend we figured that that would be the punishment (along with the requisit brown pop penalty..) that the official who blows it figures out where it was in the air when he did... LOL..but back to the point, yes you are correct the NHFS told our group that it will be replayed...to the point of adding that sentence in the rule book...
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Old Mon Jun 28, 2004, 08:45am
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REPLY: Considering the way the PSK criteria are worded, even without the new IW wording, I would have found it hard to do anything but replay the down...and crucify the official who blew the whistle!
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Old Mon Jun 28, 2004, 01:04pm
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REPLY: Just a little "soap box" discussion if you'll allow me... It's primarily aimed at our newer officials, but even some of us 'graybeards' might get something out of it.

This thread talks about a scrimmage kick and an inadvertent whistle -- a horrible combination! In my observations, this unfortunately is more than a hypothetical question. Even in a college bowl game last season, a BJ blew an inadvertent whistle during a scrimmage kick! IMHO, there are basically two situations during a scrimmage kick where an inadvertent whistle might be likely. The first is when a receiver signals for a fair catch. The covering official sounds the whistle when the receiver touches the kick anticipating that he will complete the catch. But...he muffs it! And then all hell breaks loose. This is what happened in the bowl game I mentioned. The official in such a situation suffers from good intentions but flawed execution. His intent is to 'enforce' the protection for the receiver. Why? Doesn't the signal do that? Every player, coach, fan, maybe even announcer(!?!) knows that the ball will become dead if and when the receiver catches it and that he's 'off-limits.' There's no urgent need to sound the whistle. My advice...let the receiver straighten up and watch all the action begin to stop after the catch is completed before you sound the whistle. In some cases, depending on the angle I have, I may even wait for him to turn and offer me the ball before blowing.

The second such situation is when a scrimmage kick is rolling on the ground beyond the NZ. A player of K (or maybe even R) dives on the ball to cover it. The official sounds his whistle, and then sees the ball squirt loose prior to posession being gained. Again, a "red-faced" discussion with the R followed by an irate coach told that the down would need to be replayed. There's no reason for it. We're always preaching that the whistle doesn't kill the ball, that the ball is already dead. Let's apply that principle ourselves in these cases. Let the play kill itself. Don't be in a hurry to sound the whistle. If there's going to be a late hit, it will most likely happen--whistle or not. Yes, it's easier to 'defend' a personal foul flag if the contact comes after the whistle, but is it really worth the risk of blowing the whistle too soon? I personally don't think so. I'd invite your comments.
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Old Mon Jun 28, 2004, 01:25pm
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Bravo Bravo

Bob,
Very well written and very good points. Again for newer officials, and to remind us not so newer ones, the only whistle that makes the ball dead, is the Inadvertant Whistle. Like Bob says let the play kill itself. I might add one other situation that might be a breeding ground for IW. It was brought up in our discussion last weekend. The kick occurs, and a penalty say holding or something occurs soon thereafter. There was some discussion that the calling official might (wrongly I might add), blow his whistle as he throws his flag. Newer officials, if you spit your whistle out on the snap you have to work pretty hard to have an inadvertant whistle. This is one of those do as I say things...I personally don't spit it out, I hate having it bounce around while I move around, and I am a BBall official and feel comfortable with it in...
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Old Mon Jun 28, 2004, 06:11pm
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Mike, I recieved my 2004 rule books a few days ago and this is the wording of 2-16-g. Post scrimmage kick- a foul by R that occurs on R's side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of a scrimmage kick (other than a try or successful field goal), that crosses the neutral zone, and K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends. My slight disagreement with your previous post is this, the kick does not have to end on R's side of the neutral zone for psk to apply (it only has to cross the neutral zone). I'm sure this subject will receive a lot of interest before the season starts, and we will hear many other viewpoints.

[Edited by keystoneref on Jun 28th, 2004 at 07:14 PM]
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Old Tue Jun 29, 2004, 08:17am
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Quote:
Originally posted by keystoneref
Mike, I recieved my 2004 rule books a few days ago and this is the wording of 2-16-g. Post scrimmage kick- a foul by R that occurs on R's side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of a scrimmage kick (other than a try or successful field goal), that crosses the neutral zone, and K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends. My slight disagreement with your previous post is this, the kick does not have to end on R's side of the neutral zone for psk to apply (it only has to cross the neutral zone). I'm sure this subject will receive a lot of interest before the season starts, and we will hear many other viewpoints.

[Edited by keystoneref on Jun 28th, 2004 at 07:14 PM]
REPLY: Indeed, the Federation did remove the requirement that the kick must end on R's side of the ENZ for this upcoming season. I was speaking to one of the state interpreters who was out in Indy for this year's rules discussion. It seems when they asked themselves why they ever put that requirment in the original 2003 version of PSK, no one could remember or come up with a good reason to leave it there. So they removed it! I'm hoping we don't waste a lot of time on this change discussing whether or not it's really changed (check out the 2004 Case Book bottom of page 3 and top of page 4). However, there are now some play situations where this change will figure into the discussion.
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Old Tue Jun 29, 2004, 02:04pm
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Smile Thanks!

Thats good to know that the kick does not have to end beyond the neutral zone for PSK to apply because one of the 2003 NFHS interpretations stated this. See 2003 NFHS interpretation number 14. Sounds like the NFHS has changed this for the 2004 rule and case book.

So the key point is that the kick only has to cross the neutral zone and if the other requirements are met (R fouls on their side of the expanded neutral zone prior to the end of the kick, the kick crosses the neutral zone and R is in possession at the end of the down, then PSK would apply.
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