Does this site ever discuss football?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Thank you for proving you don't actually read my posts Jeff.

I said I'm not advocating and have been very clear about that. I'm not saying it will happen or that it should. Actually take the time to read my posts instead of looking for points to argue.

And Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are all based on OBR. So yes most youth baseball is played under OBR. I'm simply refuting your point that no other sport plays different rules between youth and high school. It's simply not true.

These are professional based rules that are more complex than NFHS rules. So again, there are other sports that do it.

I read your post, but I do not agree with them always.

Again you assume that Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are the only youth baseball played here. Kids are not playing baseball that much anymore (at least not here) and many youth leagues are not associated with those organizations for all kinds of reasons. Little League might be the most popular you listed on this list at least here. After that, there are a lot school based leagues that involve FED Rules being played under. And I am sure that applies on some level to other areas of the country. Again just this little issue is why it will not happen. I did not have to read your post or read every word slowly in your post to understand that basic fact. And I am not actually arguing with you, I am sharing a perspective on the topic. Not every response is an argument. We are not going to solve this issue on this site anytime soon. I doubt the NF reads this and says, "You know, Jeff Rutledge said this on that website, so let us listen to what he thinks and throw out all of our general and basic principles we have been applying for years." Pop Warner and Bill George (Youth Football) here are about the biggest youth football organizations outside of actual school ball uses FED Rules for all there levels considering they are across the country. Heck everyone wants to be different I would suspect and that is part of the issue. They do not care what officials think IMO.

Considering that the FED is bigger than just one sport, they tend to share their philosophies across multiple sports and sports we never have discussed here. And this all started as to why we do or do not discuss football on this site, which honestly has little to do with what rules set is used overall. There are many more venues for discussion of football and this site has been left in the dust for some time. Basketball for example has the largest following but most of the participants seem to follow other sites as well. Stop being so sensitive, just having a discussion man. That is what we are supposed to be doing here right?

Peace

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I read your post, but I do not agree with them always.

Then stop attributing to me things I'm not saying and actually saying the opposite of.

Again you assume that Babe Ruth, USSSA, AAU, Pony and Little League are the only youth baseball played here.

I'm not talking about Naperville, IL, I'm talking about the entire country. Those are the largest youth baseball organizations from coast to coast. Regardless it was simply an example to refute something you were claiming that wasn't true.

And I am not actually arguing with you, I am sharing a perspective on the topic.

As am I and from somebody that has a pretty unique experience in this topic. My only point was that a lot of the things claimed about lower levels playing under NCAA rules are not true. I've experienced it firsthand. That's it.

And since I have to seemingly say it over and over again, I'm not advocating and I'm not saying it even makes sense for other states to change. It just wouldn't be the end of the known world if they did.

Not every response is an argument.

Sure. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Stop being so sensitive, just having a discussion man. That is what we are supposed to be doing here right?

Peace

I'm fine. Not heated or being sensitive at all. It's not too much to ask that my posts actually be understood though. Of course it's a discussion otherwise I wouldn't be engaging in it. And then whose posts would you only partially read?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'm not talking about Naperville, IL, I'm talking about the entire country. Those are the largest youth baseball organizations from coast to coast. Regardless it was simply an example to refute something you were claiming that wasn't true.

I rarely if ever work a game in Naperville, Illinois. Nothing I was talking about has anything to do with the town I live in. And I do not do baseball anymore and I never did a couple of the organizations games as you listed. I can only speak for what I know and what I did. I also did high school baseball in Iowa and those leagues you mentioned were not as big of an influence in youth baseball because those kids played high school during the summer.

Originally Posted by Welpe

As am I and from somebody that has a pretty unique experience in this topic. My only point was that a lot of the things claimed about lower levels playing under NCAA rules are not true. I've experienced it firsthand. That's it.

And since I have to seemingly say it over and over again, I'm not advocating and I'm not saying it even makes sense for other states to change. It just wouldn't be the end of the known world if they did.

I was just giving a perspective. Take it or leave it. Again, the NF is not doing something either way based on what we talk about here.

Originally Posted by Welpe

Sure. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

There are a lot of things that help me sleep at night and it does not involve talking to a dude on an internet site. But thanks for the concern.

Originally Posted by Welpe

I'm fine. Not heated or being sensitive at all. It's not too much to ask that my posts actually be understood though. Of course it's a discussion otherwise I wouldn't be engaging in it. And then whose posts would you only partially read?

For something to be understood it falls on you first. I was just commenting on the topic and not trying to make it conversation. But I have seen this movie before where people from Texas claim that everything they do is so great and everyone else should follow because it is not a problem there. Again, just giving a perspective of why that might not work for everyone. I also played football in Texas for a brief time and had another family member play there and get a D1 scholarship. I am very aware of how different Texas approaches youth football and other sports to where I have lived and officiated. Unless it has drastically changed, those issues would not go away.

Peace

[scrounge]

I don't think it's a great analogy to say that many youth baseball leagues use OBR so why not use NCAA for sub-college HS. In my opinion, there is far more commonality in the main playing rules from OBR to FED in baseball than NCAA to FED in football. For the vast majority of plays, there is no substantial difference in baseball. The main differences that come up are the balk rules and obstruction, but it's pretty rare for a balk call in OBR to actually get pitched and hit, and obstruction/interference differences simply don't come up all that often. If I see more than 5 a year, it's a lot.

In football, it's a totally different story. From blocking below the waist to all the exceptions to clock management, etc., the differences are pervasive and commonplace. I think it's unreasonable to expect the vast army of officials across the country - of all different experience levels and abilities - to master the NCAA code. I understand it works in TX, with a - shall we say - unique and more intense culture. And MA is a relatively small state that may find it easier to ensure uniformity and knowledge. I don't think it would work across the board.

As an aside, here in central Ohio, it's virtually unheard of to have any baseball at any level that isn't Fed. The only league I know that uses OBR is the adult league, and even they use the Fed FSPR.

[ajmc]

Two, tried and true old sayings come to mind; 1. "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and 2. "When in Rome, act like a Roman".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by scrounge

I don't think it's a great analogy to say that many youth baseball leagues use OBR so why not use NCAA for sub-college HS. In my opinion, there is far more commonality in the main playing rules from OBR to FED in baseball than NCAA to FED in football. For the vast majority of plays, there is no substantial difference in baseball. The main differences that come up are the balk rules and obstruction, but it's pretty rare for a balk call in OBR to actually get pitched and hit, and obstruction/interference differences simply don't come up all that often. If I see more than 5 a year, it's a lot.

In football, it's a totally different story. From blocking below the waist to all the exceptions to clock management, etc., the differences are pervasive and commonplace. I think it's unreasonable to expect the vast army of officials across the country - of all different experience levels and abilities - to master the NCAA code. I understand it works in TX, with a - shall we say - unique and more intense culture. And MA is a relatively small state that may find it easier to ensure uniformity and knowledge. I don't think it would work across the board.

As an aside, here in central Ohio, it's virtually unheard of to have any baseball at any level that isn't Fed. The only league I know that uses OBR is the adult league, and even they use the Fed FSPR.

Exactly.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by scrounge

I don't think it's a great analogy to say that many youth baseball leagues use OBR so why not use NCAA for sub-college HS. In my opinion, there is far more commonality in the main playing rules from OBR to FED in baseball than NCAA to FED in football.

Partly that's for historic reasons. The pros invented baseball as we know it, so all the codes are derived from OBR. Football as we know it was invented by the colleges -- students & alumni. Basketball was invented by the YMCA. Soccer was imported intact.

Of those, football's rules have always been the most contentious & turbulent, so you'd expect a lot of diversity. The pros honed baseball's rules and developed such a following that theirs became everybody's model. Basketball was almost proprietary in its early development, so they too got out most of the kinks. Soccer is played internationally, so it's going to conform pretty closely, plus it's simple enough that there's not much that would reasonably vary.

Softball has so much rules variation, even though it's on a baseball model, because it has such wide particip'n by people who are into it to varying degrees. That's how it's developed specialties like 16".

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I rarely if ever work a game in Naperville, Illinois. Nothing I was talking about has anything to do with the town I live in. And I do not do baseball anymore and I never did a couple of the organizations games as you listed. I can only speak for what I know and what I did. I also did high school baseball in Iowa and those leagues you mentioned were not as big of an influence in youth baseball because those kids played high school during the summer.



I was just giving a perspective. Take it or leave it. Again, the NF is not doing something either way based on what we talk about here.



There are a lot of things that help me sleep at night and it does not involve talking to a dude on an internet site. But thanks for the concern.




For something to be understood it falls on you first. I was just commenting on the topic and not trying to make it conversation. But I have seen this movie before where people from Texas claim that everything they do is so great and everyone else should follow because it is not a problem there. Again, just giving a perspective of why that might not work for everyone. I also played football in Texas for a brief time and had another family member play there and get a D1 scholarship. I am very aware of how different Texas approaches youth football and other sports to where I have lived and officiated. Unless it has drastically changed, those issues would not go away.

Peace

I have lived and umpired in 6 states. An overwhelming majority of youth baseball is played under some OBR-based rules set. This is not the argument to make here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

I have lived and umpired in 6 states. An overwhelming majority of youth baseball is played under some OBR-based rules set. This is not the argument to make here.

I did not bring up OBR, so honestly what baseball does in relationship to this conversation is silly if you ask me. Not sure what argument you are talking about. OBR does not have the vast differences that NFL does to even college ball in rules.

Peace