Play to discuss

[mikesears]

4/10 from K-20. Snapper K1 snaps ball to K7. K7 misses snap and ball is rolling around. While the ball is rolling around, K25 holds R99 at the K-18. K7 picks the ball up and advances to the K-23. Not knowing exactly where he is, he kicks the ball away like a punt. After the kicked ball is away and while K7 still has not regained his balance, R85 levels K7 with what otherwise would be a legal block. R19 signals for a fair catch but muffs the "punt" at the R-43 and K83 goes downfield, secures possession of the ball at the R-40 and runs the ball for an apparent touchdown.

Break the play down. What is legal, illegal, and what options do you offer to teams if any. What is the status of the clock after all options are offered.

(The key is knowing where K7 kicks the ball from).

[JMN]

Let's see. Here's my best shot...

My ruling:

We have a hold on A, on a loose ball play.

We have an illegal kick on K7. The ball is dead when K7 kicks it according to NCAA 6-3-10c - "A scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is a live-ball foul that causes the ball to become dead."

The rest is immaterial (K83 recovered a dead ball and cannot advance, anyway). This play is so screwed up, there's no use considering a delay on K83, heck the officials aren't even sure what happened.

The holding penalty would be declined in favor of the illegal kicking penalty. 5yds from the previous spot and loss of down.

Since it was 4th down for K, looks like B 1/10 (goal?) @ K10, clock on snap.

[mikesears]

We have an illegal kick on K7. The ball is dead when K7 kicks it according to NCAA 6-3-10c - "A scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is a live-ball foul that causes the ball to become dead."

Another one of those differences between NCAA and Fed. I was curious as to what the NCAA ruling was. Thanks!

[sm_bbcoach]

OK, whay about FED Rules?

[ABoselli]

In Fed rules, no foul causes a live ball to become dead.

K has kicked the ball illegally, which is a fifteen yard penalty from the spot. However, K also held during a loose ball play, 10 back from the LOS. You can only fair catch a legal kick, so we can dispense with that, and an illegal kick is treated like a fumble, no fair catching a fumble.

There is no protection for the kicker of an illegal kick but if there is a personal foul for unnecessary roughness or illegal personal contact, we would enforce that, but not RTK. That would negate the K foul and we would replay 4th down.

That not being the case, we have no TD if R accepts one of the fouls. We start on the snap as the down ended with the ball dead behind the goal line, 4th and whatever the accepted foul enforcement spot was. If we have RTK, then we have offsetting and we replay 4th down.





[Edited by ABoselli on May 13th, 2003 at 12:49 PM]

[cmathews]

lets just send everyone home for making a Travesty of the game LOL I agree with ABoselli

[JMN]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ABoselli [B]In Fed rules, However, K also held during a loose ball play, 10 back from the LOS.

AB, wouldn't the holding according to FED rules be enforced from the spot of the foul since it was behind the LOS?

I would use the K18 as the enforcement spot and take 1/2 the distance if the penalty was accepted. Anyone agree?

[mikesears]

Here is how I break the play down (and yes I included an aweful lot!)

4/10 from K-20. Snapper K1 snaps ball to K7. K7 misses snap and ball is rolling around. While the ball is rolling around, K25 holds R99 at the K-18.

Flag the holding during a loose ball play.

K7 picks the ball up and advances to the K-23. Not knowing exactly where he is, he kicks the ball away like a punt.

Illegal kicking because he kicked the ball after crossing the neutral zone. We now have nothing more than a fumble


After the kicked ball is away and while K7 still has not regained his balance, R85 levels K7 with what otherwise would be a legal block.

We cannot have roughing the kicker because he did not legally kick the ball. That was what I was trying to illustrate.

R19 signals for a fair catch

All we have is a player waving his hand beause the ball was not legally kicked. It is NOT an illegal or invalid signal.

but muffs the "punt" at the R-43 and K83 goes downfield, secures possession of the ball at the R-40

Perfectly legal AND a live ball because K82 has recovered a fumble and not a kick.

and runs the ball for an apparent touchdown.

Results of the play is a touchdown for K. R won't accept that option.

R can take the holding penalty for 4/21 @ K-9.
R can take the illegal kicking penalty for 4/17.5 @ K-12.5.


BTW, you guys are too good. Great job!

[James Neil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JMN
[B]

Originally posted by ABoselli In Fed rules, However, K also held during a loose ball play, 10 back from the LOS.

AB, wouldn't the holding according to FED rules be enforced from the spot of the foul since it was behind the LOS?

I would use the K18 as the enforcement spot and take 1/2 the distance if the penalty was accepted. Anyone agree?

I do, I do

[ABoselli]

Brain cramp. From the spot of the foul. What was I thinking?

[Theisey]

Mikes breakdown is pretty much right on (for NFHS.
However, and I know we have discussed this in the past years, the problem will be this.

(portion of the play)but muffs the "punt" at the R-43 and K83 goes downfield, secures possession of the ball at the R-40

(Mikes response) Perfectly legal AND a live ball because K82 has recovered a fumble and not a kick.

(rest of the play)and runs the ball for an apparent touchdown.

The deep offical is NOT going to know the kick was illegal and as soon as the apparent muff is recovered by the kicking team, he will instinctively kill the play.

Now you have an inadvertent whistle to deal with. That's what is really going to happen. I like the NCAA way of dealing with this illegal kick from beyond the NZ.

[James Neil]

K83 goes downfield, secures possession of the ball at the R-40


The deep offical is NOT going to know the kick was illegal and as soon as the apparent muff is recovered by the kicking team, he will instinctively kill the play.

Now you have an inadvertent whistle to deal with. That's what is really going to happen.
[/B]

excellant point T ! So lets work this play from that stand point . Please continue

[mikesears]

Originally posted by James Neil

excellant point T ! So lets work this play from that stand point . Please continue [/B]

The results of the play is K's ball wherever the whistle blows. R won't allow this to happen. If R accepts EITHER penalty during the play, it will be treated as a foul during a loose-ball play. We will march off the penalty and replay the down per I.W. rules. The best thing that can happen during a play with an I.W. is a foul.

[ABoselli]

We would then wind it on the ensuing play on the ready, then. (and subject the BJ to ridicule and derision).