Is this too much to discuss?

[Bfair]

In Pete Booth's last post in his thread regarding "ejections" he finished by discussing the need for uniformity among officials. Pete indicated lack of uniformity in ejecting while seemingly accepting that there is uniformity in APPLICATION of the rules. I don't necessarily agree.
He also offered a challenge to come up with another thread that could be well discussed.

I offer the following as a question I posed to Carl in his column on another board. He chose to stay away from it for some reason. I know there are others out there who, to some degree, feel similar as I do. I have seen posts indicating such.

Is this anything anyone wishes to discuss, or is it something I only see in my own mind? Does it happen elsewhere?


PREVIOUS POST:
"I suspect or at least hope most users are here to further knowledge by learning from the some of the best (or at least the respected). After review of many situations and postings, etc it is obvious many know their rules and how to apply them.

Unfortunately, in my locale I have seen many, especially those who advance upward and know the rules and interpretations (because they are the teachers) fail to apply them in the games.

Great examples include batter interference, R2 doing the mambo in front of F6 on a ground ball, pickoff attempts with F6 or F3 kneeling or blocking the bag yet barely being able to reach the ball, and BR's running OBVIOUSLY fair causing F3 to abandon base on throws that are reachable but off toward home---to name just a few.
We've all seen these plays.

These officials AVOID THE CONTROVERSIAL CALLS and sell the no-call instead. I have seen those calls ignored despite post-play complaints by players and coaches. Later, some of the umps have referred to that type play as "good baseball" and to "just let the players play". Plays like this are supported by Pro actions such as the Knoblauch no call several years ago in the LCS, Pudge Rodriguez busting a thumb on Mo Vaughn (you never saw UIC call interference?), and fan interference on a fly ball in Yankee Stadium with Richie Garcia in perfect position to make the call. Not to mention Clemens throwing a bat remnant at a runner (how many of you would have had Clemens remain in your game??). OOPS, I guess I mentioned it. When you think about it, these OCCURRENCES happen far less at the Pro level.

I feel at the Fed level especially, the coaches tend to condone or at least live with that "no-call" as part of the game. Resultantly, that TYPE of play festers. I think there are very few Fed games you'll see where one of those listed techniques will not be attempted (not necessarily successful). Those officials who have the guts to make the "fair" call end up in controversy--------ultimately slowing down their progression upward or getting scratched.

Wouldn't consistency among officials, vs. hypocrisy, lead to a much better game as it was meant to be."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now, gentlemen, I am not talking about booger pickin', but I am talking about enforcing the rules that I have seen discussed on these boards for several months. I feel the fear of getting scratched or being evaluated negatively because of involvement in a more controversial play (other than ball/strike, fair/foul, safe/out) leads to lack of uniformity on the field. Unfortunate as it may seem, I have seen the instructors bypass such calls in their games. Certainly it could be MY judgement may not be the same at THEIRS, but some of these incidents resulting in no-calls could have been seen from Cleveland (and weren't called). Most of us saw the Pro plays referenced. Maybe my judgement is off there also, but I felt they epidomize the improper no-call. I, needless to say, would have made a differnet call in those Pro plays. With the exception of Garcia's call, I saw the others as both obvious and flagrant.

Anyone care to discuss?


[Edited by Bfair on Dec 28th, 2000 at 12:35 PM]

[BJ Moose]

As Einstein said, "It's relative."

I don't know about all this. My experience with a 200+ ump Association is that the good guys, experienced, know their stuff, and have all that "game sense".. DO make the tough rules calls. Because they have the experience to do it, and, most important, they have done it before.

I think the poor "no call" is more a matter of inexperience and the pressure of the big game or the situation. AFter a 1000 games... there are tons of situations that I still have NOT had to deal with, or rule on. And when one at a time they pop up.. its hard to react.. second nature.

Especially in amatuer umpiring.. we aint robots (like the A pro level umps) so you can't help but get all types of calls and interps on the exact same scenario. Many of the calls and interps may be technically WRONG, but we all have make wrong judgements in order to accumulate the games that allow us to perfect the right judgement.

[ATTN WW]. Please use this space to submit your BLAST, as the last time I responded early to a thread (Ejections) you ignited! so here [---] OH I CRACK MYSELF UP!!

[Bfair]

Sorry not to ignite for ya moose. Time to re-evaluate. Seems like no one else sees this problem. Perhaps I need to re-establish my standards. Not too vain to say so!!

[Patrick Szalapski]

We should not look to the Major League Umps as our example, no matter what point we are trying to make. Their situation is so mcuh different from ours; they are expected to do their job differently than we ours.

I agree with da moose here. The good umps will make the tough calls that should be made, and these are many and varied, though perhaps rare.

P-Sz

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by BJ Moose
[ATTN WW]. Please use this space to submit your BLAST, as the last time I responded early to a thread (Ejections) you ignited! so here [NAH] OH I CRACK MYSELF UP!!

Gee, Moose, it was kind of you to leave me just enough letter spaces for my answer. We must be in sync or sumthin'!

Cheers.

[cmcallm]

The one thing (besides building confidence) that Umpire School did for me was demonstrate through MANY setup situations the myriad of "odd" or "infrequent" plays/calls that many umpires won't even see in their career, and allow me to recognize and react properly to those situations. The good umpires are the ones who can recognize what they're looking at and deal with it as an arbitor. Inexperienced officials see something "odd", don't know what they just saw, and CAN'T rule on it because they don't know what it was.

As an experienced official, I will listen to more s*** if I believe I may have missed a call, but I will listen to very little if I know I got it right. What keeps the coach in the game is my ability to explain what I just did, and his ability to buy it. That is game management, and it only comes with experience.

[Bfair]

Let me highlight one situation that somewhat epidomizes situation. Several years ago I drove close to 200 miles with colleagues, both have been president of our Fed Chapter and well experienced, to do HS playoff regional series. 3 man crew requested of well experienced officials. Knowing that I DO call the rules, my partners impressed upon me to let them call any balks.

During the game with R1 and R3 and pitcher on rubber having stretched and set, R1 breaks to 2nd. F1 steps forward off rubber WITH HIS PIVOT FOOT approx 12"-18", turns to 1st and continues to turn and deliver to 2nd. My immediate instinct was to call balk for coming forward off rubber but caught myself to allow partners to call it as agreed. Nothing was called, R1 ends up in rundown, R3 breaks to plate, R1 continues to 2nd, R3 ultimately dives in safely at 3rd. No coaches arguments, nothing!!

Between innings I discuss in short center with my field partner. He indicates to me he didn't see F1 come forward off rubber. After game, well away from field going to lockers, UIC says, "did y'all know that F1 came off rubber forward with his pivot foot on that rundown play" (thereby acknowledging my judgement as same). He continued to talk about what a great "no call" that was as the coaches didn't argue after play was over.

Sorry guys, I wasn't impressed with field partner for not seeing it, I wasn't impressed with UIC for bragging about our great no call, and I wasn't impressed with myself for not calling what I should have called. We are all highly respected senior officials. I have not been swayed in that same manner since.

Yet this situation illustrates the hypocrisy I feel I see among many who teach the rules, see and know the situations vs. the rules, yet fail to apply them. This is only one of several similar incidents. Am I the only one who sees things like this? Do not the Pro incidents shown in the initial post reflect similar application of rules? I suspect those officials knew the rules. The plays SEEMED obvious, at least to me. I do, indeed, have difficulty digesting some of these hapennings.

[Warren Willson]

Originally posted by Bfair
Yet this situation illustrates the hypocrisy I feel I see among many who teach the rules, see and know the situations vs. the rules, yet fail to apply them. This is only one of several similar incidents. Am I the only one who sees things like this? Do not the Pro incidents shown in the initial post reflect similar application of rules? I suspect those officials knew the rules. The plays SEEMED obvious, at least to me. I do, indeed, have difficulty digesting some of these hapennings.

Steve,

To a certain extent I find myself agreeing with Patrick (P-Sz) on this issue; you shouldn't use MLB umpires for such comparisons. The constraints on them are significantly different because they are in a purely professional entertainment field.

If the instructors at the Pro schools, who also happen to call AA-AAA minors, are not practicing what they preach then I would be more concerned. But I'm not worried WHAT the MLB pros actually do in that respect. It's not hypocrisy but rather meeting the pragmatic requirements of their league, about which we will inevitably know very little.

I liken it to teaching an umpire to call the plate. To begin with you ALWAYS teach ONLY the bland basics. Individual flair is deliberately discouraged until those bland basics have been grasped and mastered. Only then can you encourage them to experiment to improve their game. It's the same with the way these guys first teach and then call the game at the MLB level. In teaching they cover what Pro school candidates need to get through the first couple of levels in the minors. By the time they reach AAA, and become instructors themselves, THEN they can be acquainted with the facts of life for the MLB pros. There the strict enforcement of rules sometimes comes second to other more pressing requirements such as the maintenance of discipline and order, the following of league directives, or the general conduct of the game for the benefit of the paying fans.

OTOH, in view of the example you offered, I would be the last to argue in defense of the hypocrisy of amateur instructors telling you to call a game one way and then not calling it that way themselves. If THAT is what you are seeing on a regular basis, then I feel you have a right to rail against it. I don't think I would accept the risk of being "black balled" as an excuse to acquiesce, but it would depend on the availability of alternative leagues and associations. Remember, it is much more difficult to change an organisation from the outside.

Cheers.

[Edited by Warren Willson on Dec 29th, 2000 at 01:19 AM]

[DDonnelly19]

I remember I got a lot of flack from the big dogs in our association because I was too "by the book", especially when dealing with balks. Don't toss anybody, don't cause any controversy, just make everyone happy. Well, after reading a lot of the articles on eumpires.com it turns out that a lot of the calls that I made are the ones I should have been making.

Basically I now take everything an veteran says or does with a grain of salt, unless their actions dictate that they do acknowledge NAPBL interpretations, authoritative rulings, or that they realize that there's always something new to learn. The big dogs who trained me never mentioned NAPBL, PBUC, or any interpretation or "authoritative opinion" outside the book. When I learned of the existence of these a few years ago, it really humbled me and made me realize that even after 12 seasons of umpiring there was still a lot to be learned.

Last year one of our UIC's, a 25-year vet, kept insisting that the hands were part of the bat, even after I showed him repeated references that his claim simply wasn't true.
Just goes to show that even though someone claims to have 30 years of experience, it doesn't mean jack if they've been doing it wrong all those years. Of course, that doesn't mean you should disrespect them.

[GarthB]

BFair:

Be careful friend. Your are treading in dangerous waters.

In a recent article for eUmpire, I interviewed 30 "Internet" umpires. One question I asked was "How do you choose whom to believe at umpire sites?" Most agree that this was the toughest part of using the internet when looking for advice.

My favorite response was: "When in my heart of hearts I just know that what someone has told me is unethical or immoral, I never read their posts again."

I put a situation similar to yours to a forum of 20 REAL Div. 1 conference umpires. Not one agreed with the advice you received from his holiness.

Now, according to his holiness they would be lying or in denial.

Do you know Jon Bible, former National Coordinator of Umpires for the NCAA, owner of one of the best training camps for future NCAA Div 1 umpires, devoutly religious man sincere in his faith and beliefs? I do. He doesn't lie and has no need for denial.

How about Dave Yeast? Current NCAA Coordinator of Umpires, board member and senior trainer of ABUA, responsible for selection of umpires to regionals, national regionals and the college world series. Gus Rodriquez? Dave Fetchiet? Two of the top, top dogs nationally in NCAA Div. 1 and both of whom worked the most recent Olympics. I know these gentlemen. They are not liars and have no need for denial.

Not one of them, nor any other true DIV 1 conference umpire I addressed agreed with his holiness.

Now we are back to the question I put to the umpires in the survey: "How do you choose whom to believe....?"

I do not believe that anyone who posts at this board is intentionally trying to mislead you. But I do believe some people are mistaken.

I choose to believe people with the backgrounds, success and character of Jon Bible and Dave Yeast.

If you'd like, contact me by email and I will give you access information to these gentlemen and you can ask them yourself.

GarthB

[Bfair]

After reading the lasts posts by WW, DDonnelly, Peter, and Dave, I am pleased to understand that I am not the only one seeing these things (or the only one willing to address them). I, and I hope all, appreciate your honesty.

I thought all posts were excellent and bring out factors of reality that we all recognize must exist in amateur ball for survival. Warren, I understand the Pro differential (although I may not like or agree with it) but feel it portrays BAD EXAMPLES to both amateur umpires and amateur players who tend to want to emulate the Pros. I used them as examples for 2 reasons, (1)most readers are aware of the incidents and therefore could discuss or understand and, (2) I felt they are all relativley flagrant--offering exception perhaps to Richie Garcia's play.

We all know small, technical things are overlooked and/or warned for the sake of fairness and sanity in the game. We are not there to play God, rather to judge and promote a FAIR game based upon the intent of the rules. Sometimes to achieve that fairness, minor infractions are overlooked. Our judgement plays an important part of that unwritten part of the game---and that judgement may alter slightly based on the level of competition. I am an advocate of knowing and studying the rules. If we don't know the rules and proper interpretations to start with, how can we decide if its an infraction infringing upon the fairness of the game. We're the only paid people at the amateur game and should be first to RECOGNIZE a possible infraction and whether advantages are being gained. Whether it's called or overlooked then becomes our judgement on what we enforce for the fairness of the game.
I suspect we agree, perhaps not.

The biggest problem, I feel, was best addressed by Dave. Acknowledging that many, perhaps most, overlook small infractions where no advantage is gained, I have seen many who also tend to overlook the more flagrant infractions where in fact ADVANTAGES ARE GAINED. I feel this is being done to follow the avenue of least resistance and sacrificing fairness in the game.

Nobody wants to be a booger picker or really wants to be on the field with one. However, I think the level of what is being overlooked imposes upon the advantage/disadvantage balance. I think too often it has gone to far. I even believe some of the coaches have learned to accept that certain infractions will be ignored unless utterly flagrant.

Finally, I think if you involve yourself appropriately in the more controversial plays, it comes back upon you negatively. Those teaching and ignoring, evaluate lower because you are not doing what they are doing. And in conclusion to Peter I will add, I am the old 50 yr. old fat guy and my game is not what it was perhaps 10 yrs ago. I am honest enough to admit it. I still think my game is good and like to think some of the experience gained will help make up for the physical attributes lost. I am idealistic enough to like to think I can at least try to make a difference for those young, good officials who do have the intestinal fortitude to make the tough calls vs. ignoring them.

Garth, your post came online just before entering this one. I have met Dave Yeast though I doubt he remembers me. That's about it. Please realize, Garth, I have not identified any amateur official, and the Pros should expect to be discussed because of notoriety. I don't think I have labled anyone a liar or in denial, merely that some may practice something different than what they preach. Those doing it will frequently acknowledge it (which I respect) and justify as it as their gained knowledge and experience on what to call and what not to call. I will also agree those judgements are important to the amateaur game to maintain fairness between teams. I just think it's beginning to compromise fairness in many contests. Also, I hope my honesty and willingness to address the existence of such will add to my credibility, although I don't expect all to necessarily agree with what I say. Certainly that is their call. I do not feel addressing something that does exist is unethical unless I am shooting darts at specific people.

I thank all for their honesty and responses, even those who disagree.

[Edited by Bfair on Dec 29th, 2000 at 12:01 PM]

[BJ Moose]

Originally posted by cmcallm
Inexperienced officials see something "odd", don't know what they just saw, and CAN'T rule on it because they don't know what it was.

.

NOW these words (above) say it all. Let me shout. "THAT is what I was trying to say!!"

Over the course of games 500-1000, your "typical relatively skilled amateur umpire" (that would be me)... still sees events that simply make you go... "UH." and freeze. Its like learning a foreign language... newbies need to translate everthing in their head first, experienced just knows. Same thing here. I go "uh" and don't make the call. Its not really that crucial, a player or coach will look at me.. "Mike,did you see that? Or even, what the hell was that". "Yeah, that was WEIRD", I'll say. And post game both partner and I will lament that we missed that one and resolve to catch it next time.

We can permit some simple axioms to tell us what's what in this goofy, lonely business. I adopt CM's above, because it is simply true. A good "learning" umpire will imbed that goofy play in his mind for the "next" time....(it might take a year or more).. and try to be better prepared to react naturally to it. It might take a couple more tries..but an umpire who is progressing will manage this.

One other thing. I am stressing the point of the umpire who is Progressing while gaining experience. Because of the subset of 10+years EXPERIENCED umpires... there are STILL some in that group that essentially suck. Everything is relative.

[Bfair]

Moose, I'm not really talking about those plays we blow because we failed to recognize them in time. I think we all have had and somewhere down the road will likely have more of those. Hopefully they will be infrequent and diminish with all umpires as they gain further experience.

What I am talking about is knowingly overlooking infractions where advantages are gained---POSSIBLY in attempt to follow avenue of least resistance (best put by Dave). I just think too much is being overlooked and it is beginning to fester. I have seen several posts on other issues dealing with TECHNIQUES TAUGHT that press the rules and fairness of the game. If WE don't control it, who will?
And beyond that, the negative on the young official who makes the tough call and runs the risk of being penalized for it in his career.

Perhaps it is just my poorer judgement vs. those who may have advanced farther. That certainly is a very valid possiblity. But I feel things like the Pro incidents likely disprove that. I think many would agree the incidents were flagrant and the rules should have been better enforced. I find it hard to think that all would not agree that the indcidents became bad examples for amateurs.

To Peter I say, it's a shame differences in opinions seem to grow into obvious likes and dislikes among people on the net. I try to view it more as philosophical differences. I am certain I have already developed my enemies despite fact I do not personally attack people. I think some fall upon that behavior when they are not as successful as they would like to be in selling their opinions. Note my second post of this thread. The original LACK of response made me think it was time to re-evaluate myself. At least I am willing to admit I can be wrong in my opinions. Some may not be so willing, and some may not ever be wrong. Who knows? The continued responses, though, have provided me more support.

[cmcallm]

With regard to the "seeing something and not knowing what it was, and filing it away for future reference" - this is exactly where this kind of forum is valuable. Talk that "odd" situation over with every umpire you know, and discuss how each of you would have handled it. Then it becomes a SHARED learning experience, and MANY umpires become familiar with it - not just the two guys who were there. Then we all get better faster.

[GarthB]

BFair:

As I said, I wasn't accusing you or anyone of misleading posters. Obviously, since I disagree with some posters, I believe some of them are mistaken.

When it comes to advice of how to handle situations like yours (and those are the ones I am addressing, not any of the hypotheticals posed by others) I am merely suggesting that you seek out those you know who have really worked that level and succeeded and who you know are neither "liars" nor "in denial".

The boards are full of "NCAA Umpires". Everyone, including me, who works Div 1 games sooner or later refers to himself that ways.

However, there are damn few REAL Div 1 conference NCAA umpires. Even fewer regional, super regional and CWS umpires and only two who have served as National Coordinator of NCAA Umpires.

When you get to know those who work at this level, you learn they are not liars and they are not in denial. (Yes, I know these were not your words)

And, trust me, Jon Bible, despite the reference someone made earlier regarding his sincere and deep faith, is not a scoundrel. That he has been accused of such is a travesty.

(Actually, I believe the correct quote is "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Lastly any history that his holiness feels he has with me is irrelevant. I don't know him or his work. He does not know me or my work. What we think we know of each other is based on what we see on these pages. And that's been insufficient for me to make any final judgements.

It would be inappropriate for your issue to become clouded by any personal issue his holiness may have with me. Additionally, I am a firm supporter of official forum's policy regarding the inappropriateness of personal attacks on this board.

This will be my final post in this matter.

Good luck with your career.

GarthB