Game Scenario for Discussion

[APG]

Originally Posted by NNJOfficial

If there is any confusion, call both coaches over and explain that the timeout was requested prior to the release of the ball and it was simply a timing issue when the whistle occurred.

No need for this...use your voice while selling the timeout...

BEFORE THE PASS, TIMEOUT WHITE!

It should be rare that you have to ever call both coaches over for anything.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by APG

It should be rare that you have to ever call both coaches over for anything.

It's good procedure if you're ejecting them both.

[NNJOfficial]

This occurred with under a minute left in a contested game. All well and good if it's clear, but if it's loud and difficult to hear and there was play after the ball was released you may need to offer some explanation. FWIW, I would have done exactly as you described, but I'm assuming the OP did not in light of the question.

As to your other point, when coaches are surveyed as to what they most want from officials, consistency and communication are often the top two items on the list. It never hurts to have good communication, particularly in game-ending situations.

Originally Posted by APG

No need for this...use your voice while selling the timeout...

BEFORE THE PASS, TIMEOUT WHITE!

It should be rare that you have to ever call both coaches over for anything.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Or, if it has already been established that this is a really casual atmosphere and that something as complicated as putting time back up will be frowned upon, you might tell the timer to be sure and watch for your signal after the timeout and hold for a couple of seconds before starting.

Originally Posted by NNJOfficial

This occurred with under a minute left in a contested game. All well and good if it's clear, but if it's loud and difficult to hear and there was play after the ball was released you may need to offer some explanation. FWIW, I would have done exactly as you described, but I'm assuming the OP did not in light of the question.

As to your other point, when coaches are surveyed as to what they most want from officials, consistency and communication are often the top two items on the list. It never hurts to have good communication, particularly in game-ending situations.

Ok, enough discussion. Here's how it went down. I noticed the time discrepancy as I was walking to the table to report the timeout. Pretty cut-and-dry, so after reporting the timeout I simply went to the timer and said, "please put 59.8 on the clock; the clock should not have started." A guy behind the timer even said, "How do you know that?" I replied, "because I looked." He said, "oh, okay."

Anyway, because the timer was having trouble, then our R comes to the table and asks what's up. I said, "the clock was at 59.8 and should not have started, so we're putting that time back on." He said, "aw no, no," and gives me a look that could kill. But just at that moment the timer got the correct time up and we went to put the ball back in play.

After the game, R says to me (U2) many things, but the jist was that this was a summer league game, and I was the only one who noticed, and since both coaches didn't notice, either, I should have just left it alone. This really irked me and I even told him that I respectfully disagreed; it goes against everything I've been taught about clock management as an official. And to just another ref's point, no it had not been established in advance that the atmosphere was very casual and that putting time back on the clock would be frowned upon. Quite the contrary, this was a 3-p game during the spring, a perfect opportunity to work on skills before we all start going to camps. We even talked about that in our pre-game. So to catch a clock error, attempt to fix it, and then be scolded for that by the crew chief was ludicrous and hypocritical. This guy, an AAU finals official, is no longer on my Christmas card list.

To be fair, the R did make a valid point. If I was going to do something with the clock, I should have brought the crew together first to talk about it before going to the table. He was right; I should have done that. That said, I think I now know what he would have decided to [not] do, and that would have left me even more unsatisfied than I already am.

I am gratified by the fact that almost everyone who commented saw it my way, which I firmly believe is the correct way. Thanks for all of the input.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

This guy, an AAU finals official, is no longer on my Christmas card list.

I wouldn't assume being an AAU finals official automatically makes the person you should respect and/or emulate. They might be a good official; might not. But merely working AAU finals doesn't mean much to me.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

If I was going to do something with the clock, I should have brought the crew together first to talk about it before going to the table. He was right; I should have done that.

This is a very basic timing mistake and a simple correction. You can tell the crew and the coaches what you have after the timer fixes it. I have no problem with you going straight to the table. There is no reason to bring the crew together when you already have definite knowledge and have the situation well under control.

Originally Posted by jpgc99

This is a very basic timing mistake and a simple correction. You can tell the crew and the coaches what you have after the timer fixes it. I have no problem with you going straight to the table. There is no reason to bring the crew together when you already have definite knowledge and have the situation well under control.

I'd disagree here, when I am assigned U2 I need to make sure my R knows what is going on and in some cases check with him before I interact with the table.

I had situation this season with a last second shot and timeout by the other team immediately after. I looked at the clock after the shot went in and it said something like 1.8 seconds when I granted the timeout. By the time the clock operator stopped the clock it was .5. I knew what it was, but should have met with my partners first before going to the table to fix the clock. Two reasons for doing this: it shows everyone the crew getting together to get it right, and shows respect to my partners by checking with them.

[kstiles99]

Well cross-country, you had me fooled. Now that I look back on it, my inadvertent whistle suggestion really had no business here

But yes- I've been through these situations before. Its usually me trying to be professional and following things by the book as a very young official. Once I was trying to ask the table if they switched the possession arrow only to have my R run over with a staccato whistle telling me to relax and not worry about it. Yeah- I've had more than a few of my crew chiefs embarrass me.

But,I have a MAYB game on Saturday. That'll give me a chance to try and work on my "relaxed official" alias.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by AremRed

I'd disagree here, when I am assigned U2 I need to make sure my R knows what is going on and in some cases check with him before I interact with the table.

I had situation this season with a last second shot and timeout by the other team immediately after. I looked at the clock after the shot went in and it said something like 1.8 seconds when I granted the timeout. By the time the clock operator stopped the clock it was .5. I knew what it was, but should have met with my partners first before going to the table to fix the clock. Two reasons for doing this: it shows everyone the crew getting together to get it right, and shows respect to my partners by checking with them.

Or...it shows that you weren't sure and had to find out from your partners before fixing the clock.

How about you just blow the whistle for the timeout and loudly call out to partners "Clock needs to be at 1.8. I'll take care of it." Then go report timeout and fix the clock. You don't need permission to fix things or have an interaction with the table. Frankly, if you came to me for "permission" to handle something at the table, I would look at you like you had grown a third eye on your forehead. Go take care of it...if I can't figure out what is going on, shame on me.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Or...it shows that you weren't sure and had to find out from your partners before fixing the clock.

How about you just blow the whistle for the timeout and loudly call out to partners "Clock needs to be at 1.8. I'll take care of it." Then go report timeout and fix the clock. You don't need permission to fix things or have an interaction with the table. Frankly, if you came to me for "permission" to handle something at the table, I would look at you like you had grown a third eye on your forehead. Go take care of it...if I can't figure out what is going on, shame on me.

My thoughts exactly. Any "R" or other crew member that feels disrespected over that has some problems.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by AremRed

it said something like 1.8 seconds

There's a difference, imo, between the situation that starts with a stopped clock (as in the OP), and one with a running like (your situation).

Maybe a partner has a better / different idea of what the clock should be (but since you granted the TO, that's not too likely -- it's more so on an OOB or made basket in the last minute situation).

And, since you should have told the coaches what you were going to do so they could plan accordingly in the TO, your partners should have been aware.

Be an R even if you're not the R.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jpgc99

This is a very basic timing mistake and a simple correction. You can tell the crew and the coaches what you have after the timer fixes it. I have no problem with you going straight to the table. There is no reason to bring the crew together when you already have definite knowledge and have the situation well under control.

The NFHS rules book specifies that the R may correct timing errors. The U1 or U2 do not have this authority.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The NFHS rules book specifies that the R may correct timing errors. The U1 or U2 do not have this authority.

So if I am the U2 and am right there by the table and know the clock should be reset to 1.8, AND I have the audacity to turn to the table and take care of the issue, then what? Are you going to run over there and say "No, I am the R and I get to fix this. Reset the clock to 1.8!" and then run back to your position???

[Nevadaref]

Do you also check the scorebook before the game when you are the U2?
I would wonder why you are doing another official's duty.

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Or...it shows that you weren't sure and had to find out from your partners before fixing the clock.

I'm not sure how it would show that I don't know....I doubt many fans are thinking "oh those refs are huddling together, that means they don't know what they are doing".

Originally Posted by rockyroad

How about you just blow the whistle for the timeout and loudly call out to partners "Clock needs to be at 1.8. I'll take care of it." Then go report timeout and fix the clock. You don't need permission to fix things or have an interaction with the table. Frankly, if you came to me for "permission" to handle something at the table, I would look at you like you had grown a third eye on your forehead. Go take care of it...if I can't figure out what is going on, shame on me.

Probably because the building was so loud I couldn't yell at my partners. And I didn't say I had to ask for strict permission, just check with them to see if they had the same thing and were ok with what I thought the change should be.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

My thoughts exactly. Any "R" or other crew member that feels disrespected over that has some problems.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Be an R even if you're not the R.

Certainly, but it doesn't take much effort to go the extra mile and check with your partners before you change the clock. Once you change the clock once it is hard to change it again so why not huddle with your partners and come out with one final correction? As it was the U1 on the game (I was U2) was pissed that he didn't know what was going on when I was running around taking care of things. Like it or not I'd like to keep working with the guys in my area so I'm not gonna tell him to deal with it, no matter how irrational his "feelings" are.

[BillyMac]

Anytime the clock needs to be changed, I'm talking to my partner first, to make sure that we're both on the same page; then both coaches, they deserve an explanation; and then the table crew, who will adjust the clock.

And, it's not to keep from hurting anybody's feelings, or from stepping on anybody's toes, it's because it's the right way to do it.

From my pregame: "If anything weird happens, let's get together, and talk about it".